[tiam]

IN DG kalam had a fair few claws off and still came out on top even though he was wounded. Hwowver in HOC he couldnt take on 2(!!!) Assasins that arent even Claws. Also many find it hard to beleive that Kalam couldnt taake on the 50 (?) Claws he killed that night.

Which leads me to my question.

Are the Claws any good?

We know they took out the Talon and have the odd (TOpper Pearl) brilliant assasin. But could they one on one take on say the body guard of KAmist Reloe in HOC? I dont think so. The only strength they have is not numbers as such but organisation of those numbers as they work in hands and can all use magic. They seem to be good assasins when in an organised hand but not very good Knife fighters as kalam is.

Kalam IMO is the best Knife fighter in the empire. Also his ability to completely outclass all Claws is due to a number of fcators.

1. He was a claw. This counts for alot in terms of tactics attitudes and methods of attack and defence. He knows what styeles they use (the Web for example) ad knows how and when they will atttack

2/ hes a professional soldier aswell as an assasin. Kalam himself says that an assasin is nothing in the face of a professional soldier.

3. He is HUGE (SE favorite word). bear like strength helps him in all of his endeavours. He can take down skinny lithe assasins with one hand and he does on occasion.

4. He is virtually ascended. On the different factors of ascension some mean strength oin a physical sense whereas other mean strength of will therefore advancing magical prowess. kalam i beleive has had his speed advanced. His comment of 'They seem to slow down Adjunct' makes it seem that hes considerably faster than lithe skinny claws.

neway theres my rant. Theres been too much predujice (?) against kalam and even tho hes my favorite character i felt no problems with the best assasin in the empire that even Dancer didnt want to fight with against an organisation that he knew the ins and outs of and knew how they would fight.

[BridgeBurner]

My impression on the scene in DG was that Kalam was meant to survive. I seem to recall Topper saying something about cutting the weed within the Claw. Pearl's backstabbing Kalam seemed a personal grudge, to me...

In BH, however, The goal was to kill Tavore, T'Amber, and Kalam if he left the castle. IIRC, there were also way more Claw hands around then, and probably better ones than those placed in DG...

[Trotts]

I agree with BridgeBurner. I think, in DG, the Claw that were sent at him weren't seeded to win, and Topper basically wanted the weak out, and the rest of the Claw to see what a real assassin is like.
In HoC, I would say that Kalam could have taken more of the pseudo-Talon on, but that Cotillion just popped in to help out, just for kicks, and maybe mad that someone had tried to ressurect his assassin sect.
And in BH, the odds were just against him. Granted, ya hes Kalam, but there were wave after wave of claw pounding them down hardcore.

[Anomander Rake]

Kalam's one of my favourite characters in the series.

I basically agree with what's been said. Also don't forget Kalam even fought a demon on House of Chains and killed him, how many assassins could have done what he did there.

Kalam also has vast amounts of experience behind him, so sending so many Claws in BH and DG, means that there will be some who have only training but no solid experience. Until you get experience behind you, your likely to make basic mistakes easily, its trial and error, and unfortunately for those claws the consequence is death.

[Folken]

The fight in House of Chains which one are u refering to? the one in which The Rope pops in to save Kalam? Because if thats the one...I swear he was fighting a crap load of demons.

[GingerBreadMan]

Swordbearer said:

Kalam is awsome.
I agree with all four points.
I think strait up a healthy Kalam would be a near elemental force.

No way would he be an elemental force...

He is a damn good fighter, but he probably isn't even in the top 10 among mortals.

[Anomander Rake]

Jen said:

The fight in House of Chains which one are u refering to? the one in which The Rope pops in to save Kalam? Because if thats the one...I swear he was fighting a crap load of demons.

The one that escapes the cliff where some malazan soldiers were held up, and catches upto Kalam while he's making his way to Raraku.

[Aptorian]

tiam said:

IN DG kalam had a fair few claws off and still came out on top even though he was wounded. Hwowver in HOC he couldnt take on 2(!!!) Assasins that arent even Claws. Also many find it hard to beleive that Kalam couldnt taake on the 50 (?) Claws he killed that night.

Which leads me to my question.

Are the Claws any good?

We know they took out the Talon and have the odd (TOpper Pearl) brilliant assasin. But could they one on one take on say the body guard of KAmist Reloe in HOC? I dont think so. The only strength they have is not numbers as such but organisation of those numbers as they work in hands and can all use magic. They seem to be good assasins when in an organised hand but not very good Knife fighters as kalam is.


neway theres my rant. Theres been too much predujice (?) against kalam and even tho hes my favorite character i felt no problems with the best assasin in the empire that even Dancer didnt want to fight with against an organisation that he knew the ins and outs of and knew how they would fight.

I just cut out your kalam argument for overwiew. I think the biggest problem with such a discussion is what we think a Claw is.

A claw can be many things but he isn't in description much more than a glorified assassin. When I say Assassin I mean a hired hand used to take out a targeted victim. Assassins aren't made for hand to hand knife and sword fights up and down allies and roof tops. They are made for quick, silent and deadly attacks with the element of surprise. So when the claw loose a dozen fights to an assassin, that has gotten used to deal out death on battlefields and in citystreets and bars indescriminently, I think it's plausible.

[tiam]

yes otateral counts for alot against the Claws.

Apt- Precisely what im trying to say. They could hvae a Hand of the Claw sneak into say Yghatan kill leoman and come back outt again. But they are not competent fighters. Good assasins yes. But not fighters.

Jenisand rul- No not the demon one. When kalam fights that former Falahd dagger when Reloe and the other 2 assasins watch him. He kills the assasin then the other 2 go he has patterns and skill. If there was only one of us then wed be in trouble but seen as theres 2... Then Kalam agrees with this assessment meaning he doesnt beleive that he could win. I dont think he did it to surprise them by saying 'o youll win i give up' thne pow with thec rossbows because Kalam agrees with the mans assessment of how he will lose this fight.

Anomander Rake- I disagree that you think the Claws have no experience. Some yes i agree may simply be recruited from birth like Kalam says in GOTM. But the Empire has conquered many cities and in Rallick Nos POV we see that any one whos a good assasin is recruited into the Claw. So id say that the majority of the Claw was at malaz that night so there was a fair few veterans.

I only made this thread due to ppls dislike of Kalams newfound power. It is not new he has always been able to do it. Trulls newfound power was a shock yet no one questions it

[Hume]

GingerBreadMan said:

No way would he be an elemental force...

He is a damn good fighter, but he probably isn't even in the top 10 among mortals.

What he said..

Once again you people seem to underestimate the resiliance of the humans in the malaz world.

Time and time again we told in the series that mortals bring down ascendants and gods..
Do you think that just might actually be one of the themes of the series now ?

Now if Kalam a mere mortal would have the ability to almost physically take down a demon then why not a host of assassins ?

[Anomander Rake]

I think Kalam has probably been one of the most realistic assissins for the Malazan world, unlike Sorry and Cotillion who have shadows, powers etc.

Too bad we didn't see him and Quick Ben being loosed on the Malazan City.

[phart]

i have a wee pet theory the reason the claw seemed slow was because the ere's was helping Kalam as she was helping t'amber, i think on Mappo's ship Pust makes mention of her who can be many places but is in just one, when they are slicing through mael's realm. I suppose it's possible that the ere's was in some way helping Kalam as well as T'amber, she does have ability over time after all.

Or it could just be Kalam has got much much better, or went partial ascendant.

[phart]

Hetan said:

Kalam rocks!
Coz even a powered-up Apsalar didn't want to take him on, coz she didn't know if she'd win..
So if Shadowthrone thinks of Apsalar as better than Cotillion (not even Cotillion was the quote), then that surely makes him a bad man to mess with.

The problem is the contradictory evidence cause in HOC chains Kalam is in awe of cotillions ability, total awe, knowing he would get destroyed in a fight, Asp didn't want to take him in a fair fight, without her shadowdance abilities.

Kalam sure can fight though, its the first time one of the main characters has really cut loose and shown what they can really do, even icarium has a few more gears to step up.

[Dark Mac]

phart said:

i have a wee pet theory the reason the claw seemed slow was because the ere's was helping Kalam as she was helping t'amber, i think on Mappo's ship Pust makes mention of her who can be many places but is in just one, when they are slicing through mael's realm. I suppose it's possible that the ere's was in some way helping Kalam as well as T'amber, she does have ability over time after all.

Nah, Kalam says that it's always like that when he fights, so it wouldn't be the Eres.

[phart]

Dark Mac said:

Nah, Kalam says that it's always like that when he fights, so it wouldn't be the Eres.

Well his abilities have went up several notches since he last fought, anyone who can take 9 specially trained fighters after running and fighting through a city is super formidable.

[Anomander Rake]

Gotta love the bit where they make basically clones of Kalam, and Kalam thinks they used me and made clones of me. :lachen70: