[Dark Mac]

Hmmm, forgot who Nekal Bara was fighting. Ah well.

As for Tayschrenn's connection to the Azath, it's nothing more than the bonuses the rest of the Family got. I have no idea what exactly they would do for a mage, but it almost certainly did something.

[Dolmen 2.0]

@ Dry ice: More than likely green pig

Okay this is what I massed so far in terms of points...

Wolverine 1 (its like a law )
Tayshrenn 7
Ceda 8 (currenytly ftw)
QB 7
Pust 5
Obo 2
Tattersail 2
Bottle 1
Corlo 2
Cowl1 2
Krupe 1
Corpolan demesand 1
Bauchelain 1
Vorcan 2
Green pig 2
Sinn 2
Kimloc 1
Nekal Bara 2
Bole 1

I think not every1 has had a say so I'll let in about another 3 days of voting before drawing up the final six to arrive on the mage Island.

From there we can endeavour on picking the order and manner of defeat (easy as parting the red sea)

[Monoch Ochem]

Dryice and Dolmen: wasn't that stuff about a mage holding out one of the wild Letheri rumours/propaganda being bantered about before the invasion? I think it was either inside the bar where Seren was raped or among the observers gathered outside to watch the imminent Edur invasion. They'd been so used to winning, they were spinning tails of victory...something was said separately about Green Pig, iirc. But I'm pretty sure it said somewhere that he's dead or was executed... Will look it up. The stuff about anyone holding out against the Edur sounded like informal propaganda to me though.

I know this is a MT topic but I've always wondered why it would have made a differene if Brys had told the Ceda that Kettle was dead before. Would it have somehow alerted him to the incorrect timing of the Seventh Closure? If that was the case, I can begin to understand how the different plans could have been made etc. See, maybe then, they could have withdrawn everyoneto Lether and deployed delaying tactics so as to use the Cedance before the Edur actually managed a breach. Maybe then, the Ceda could have dealt with the demon, then worked the Cedance through Arahathan, Nekal Bara and Enedictal to obliterate the Edur and their dirty sorcery. That way, there wouldn't have been such a waste....I really wanted to see Preda Unnutal Hebaz in action. She seemed like such a kick-*ss character and I wanted to see, like Tavore and Lostara Yil, how tough she was.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Green Pig was said to have been "torn apart" while assaulting the Tolls that the ghosts storm in the book. It's been argued here that he could conceivably have survived this (in the same manner as Hairlock lived through being torn in half).

But I think he's dead, and the mage on the prison island must be someone else. It's just that Green Pig is the only candidate the rest of MT seems to offer us for being that mage, regardless of his status as thoroughly dead.

SE usually doesn't throw us snippets like that frivolously though, I think it happened, and there will definitely be some follow-up to the prisoner mage thread

[Dolmen 2.0]

Well to be honest the revelation of kettle being dead wasn't such a pivotal moment as you think. I see only the chance that the ceda sensed that her "death" was coming to an end and may have given that more relevant thought. The seventh closure I believe was as perfect as it could be.

The ceda took care of three out of four ultimatums in favour of letharii and had brys not died so foolishly the Cedas gambit would have easily turned the edur back completel. I get the feeling the ceda has some inkling of tehols plans to pull the plug and thus a plan B.

I totall agree with the notion of the Ceda being the most intelligent and powerful mage on lethar and maybe he'd have held back Rake too. he did fool a godling he could do the same to an ascendant.

[Monoch Ochem]

It's not me Dolmen....it's the book that said that had Kuru Qan known then plans would have been made and a significantly different outcome may have been achieved. When he did find out he nearly had a cardio....he went to see Kettle at once, remember?

[Svaran]

I rate these 3 equally:

Ceda - his display of trapping and slaying that sea god almost defeating the Mossag despite having the aid of crippled God and letherii blood
Tays - Quick ben himself he could not stand against Tays
Cowl - the fact that he could play round with a mage assassin as deadly as serrat with ease says he has alot of power and skill, worries even the crippled god.

[Asandir]

@Svaran
I would like to say just one thing. He did defeat Mossag, it was Trull that killed him.

[Jimmy]

No way can the Ceda even be mentioned in the group.

Cowl explained everything to that woman who went with Silchas and co. That all the majic in Letheras was born of the holds and that the malazans and everyone else had moved on to warrens. Meaning more power and greater control.

The Ceda and co were like children compared to Cowl and others.

[Hume]

@ Jimmy

I'd disagree with that. The way I remember Corlos (corlo not cowl), conversation with Seren Pedac is that Warrens are more refined not necessarilly more powerful. The Holds are more primitive and the holds are more aspects and so forth I'd say.
I mean seriously the bloke's magic as described by Trull, once it killed hannan which it wasnt far of doing, the magic was going to destroy every Edur in the City.. How could you possibly not call that powerfull ?

[Aptorian]

Jimmy said:

No way can the Ceda even be mentioned in the group.

Cowl explained everything to that woman who went with Silchas and co. That all the majic in Letheras was born of the holds and that the malazans and everyone else had moved on to warrens. Meaning more power and greater control.

The Ceda and co were like children compared to Cowl and others.

Children? Well then they are insanely powerful children. Like Hume said, their magic is less refined and more raw since they use a form of elder magic.

If you remember Quicks reaction to the sorcery in the meeting between the malaz and edur fleet, the elder magic is much more powerful and dangerous then what comes out of the warrens.

[Malaclypse]

re: Green Pig and the mage on Second Maiden Fort...

?The Tolls. Yes, that sounds challenging.?
?You won?t succeed, Shurq. No-one ever has, and that includes Green Pig who was a sorceror nearly to rival the Ceda himself??
?I knew Green Pig. He suffered from overconfidence.?
?And was torn limb from limb as a result.? (MT, UK Trade, p.392)

Strangest rumour of all, the prison island of Second Maiden Fort had flung back a succession of Edur attacks, and was still holding out, and among the half-thousand convicted soldiers was a sorceror whohad once rivalled the Ceda himself. (MT, UK Trade, p.504)

[Illuyankas]

Unfortunately, as I liked that tale, Udinaas goes on to state that those rumours were just that, rumours. There was no truth in that, and the Edur fleets were unchecked and completely unattacked.

[Hume]

With these Holds. Im not convinced they are more powerful then warrens.
Yes it is more elder, but is it elder magic ? There is distinct difference I think.
Almost all humans cannot access elder magic as well.

As to it being more powerful. The circumstances where we see hold magic unleashed on a grand scale is from the Ceda and some others. The Ceda specifaclly prepared for that situation days before that happened.
The warlocks on that fleet and the ones in the battles when invading Lether. The reason we think hold magic with the warlocks is powerful there is because there are a whole bunch of warlocks access in tandom the hold magic.

Sure put Tayschrenn (or another powerful warren wielder) in a position where he prepares specifically for one event or Quick for that matter.
Or put Mages in squads that have very similar warrens as well working in tandem and its a similar effect.

[Morgoth]

The way I see it, elder magic is much more powerfull but also much more destructive and less refined than the warrens. So, while a user of hold magic probably can deal more direct damage than a warren user, he will not be able to do more subtle .. spells..

Or to say it in another way, Hold magic is wilder, more powerfull, but also much more recistan to being shaped. Did we see any healers among the Letherii soldiers?

[fan_83]

holds magic is like a swiss army knive.. its less refined but not limited to a few roles.. its multipurpose..
warren magic is a screwdriver.. it has a role and is good at it.. while although it can do otherthings its never as good.

thats the difference.. the amount of power shown is the amount of power an individual can channel.. remember what happened to mosag.. its not the nature of the magic whereas its the amount the mage can channel..

the ceda can channel an insane amount of power through hm.. perhaps rivalling that of tay but unknown to us..

holds and warren magic is like a pool.. the size of the pool doesn;t matter only the flow from the pool that matters

[Monoch Ochem]

All I have to say about the Holds is this: look to Bottle's comment. He said (to Fiddler, I think it was) that noone wants a war fought with the Holds anymore. Just think....what the E'res worked through Bottle and QB was so amazingly powerful that the Edur ran for cover! Yet even so, as Samar Dev noticed, they were not so irresponsible to actually unleash it. Hold magic is powerful stuff.

I would gamble on it being tautology that the Holds are much more powerful than Warrens in abstract. Individual sorcerors being played off against each other may prove less or more adept at using Holds or Warrens. The raw power of the Holds is nonetheless undiminished.

[PannionDude]

I like the idea that Holdes are bazookas, while warrens are pistols. The Ceda and Hannon Mosag square off with holds...and Trull is forced to kill the Ceda because if he didn't the Ceda's spell would go on and destroy all Eduur everywhere. The army battles in MT are entirely decided by 2-3 spells, with wraiths and soldiers mopping up afterwards.

By contrast QB's confrontation with Korbal Broach and Bauchelain involves him melding with stone, freeing demons, and finally blasting. Thus far we've seen no such precision from the Hold users. The crimson guardsman mentions that with Mockra he can basically control minds (even those of Gods), or boil them. The Hold magic can bind the sea God, but it retains free thought and ultimately escapes the binding to chase teh Ceda's illusion.

It seems to fit thematically also, that Holds would be more raw and primal, and hence more powerful. Warrens shave off some power to gain more control.

With all that said, I think in your average 1 v 1 the Warren practitioner would win, generally more dodgy and blasty. On the other hand if 2 armies square off the one with Holds will win. If the Eres hadn't come up and saved the Malazan fleet it would have been ashes.

[K'orladis]

Kind of a late vote but here are my six:

Quick Ben
Tayschren
Pust
Cowl
Kimloc
Vorcan