Mappo's "Revival" Dream: Which Goddess...?

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Mappo's "Revival" Dream: Which Goddess...?

#1 Guest_Ormiss_*

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 11:21 PM

Hi!

I've been scouring this forum, expecting to see this question asked (I'm surprised no one else found this one confusing!):

On page 398, Mappo begins to rouse after being healed by Mogora, and his consciousness is sent into a dream where he meets a woman he suggests is an Elder Goddess. There are numerous hints about her identity, such as the following:

Quote

A young woman... [...] Long hair the colours of dying flames, eyes the hue of beaten gold, dressed in flowing black silks.

Quote

She lifted her arms, watched as the silks slid free, revealing unblemished skin, smooth hands. "Ah, look at me. I am young again. Extraordinary, that I once believed myself fat. Does it afflict us all, I wonder, the way one's sense of self changes over time? Or, do most people contend, wilfully or otherwise, a changeless persistence in their staid lives? When you have lived as long as I have, of course, no such delusions survive."

Quote

"Who are you?" Mappo asked.
"A queen about to be driven from her throne, banished from her empire. My vanity is about to suffer an ignominious defeat."
"Are you an Elder Goddess? I believe I know you..." He gestured. "This vast web, the unseen pattern amidst seeming chaos. Shall I name you?"
"Best you did not. I have since learned the art of hiding.

I can't help but wonder if her comment about being driven from her throne refers to the present, or the past (belonging to the scene of Jacuraku that she shows Mappo.)

Quote

"Oh, Mappo, you incite me unto weeping. I did that, on occasion, when I was young. Although, granted, most of my tears were inspired by self-pity. And so, we are transformed."

Other things worth mentioning are that the location she picked for the dreamscape is a formation of carved pillars casting a web of shadows in a deliberate pattern that Mappo cannot make out from the ground. The goddess claims that the site is "Jacuruku, four of five years since the Fall" (of the Crippled God, right?) In addition, the goddess says that Shadowthrone has assumed her cooperation, and that much to her chagrin, she is finding that he is right.

My question is simple: Who is this Elder Goddess? My first thought was Sister of Cold Nights (or, more accurately, Silverfox, which would explain the reference to being fat - though this is farfetched, given her ramblings on life,) but I'm not sure I like this explanation. The Queen of Dreams was another suspect I thought about, but she's not (as far as we know) an Elder Goddess. She was a mortal companion to Rake and Brood, once, right? And even if she were, this goddess doesn't act like the Queen of Dreams, in my opinion. (In addition, the Queen of Dreams is described, on page 494, as having golden-hued hair. (Sure, goddesses have greater powers than being able to dye their hair at will, but...)

Given the description of her hair and eyes, I also considered Tiam for about five seconds, but her human shape and the things she says about her life seem to make little sense. Beyond this, do we currently know of any other Elder Goddess...?

#2 GardenGnome

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 11:30 PM

It is believed she is Ardatha, as far as I can gather. However, I don't think we know very much else about her. She's mentioned by Kallor in MoI, see the prolouge. However, just who she is seems rather unclear - some form of vassal under Kallor, it seems, but she seems to have survived him.

Cotilion also identified her as Ardatha, asking Morgora if she was Ardatha's - this is totally from memory, by the way, it's such a pain to search through the books trying to find a specific quote :-

#3 Illuyankas

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 03:08 AM

She appears to be Ardatha/Ardata, from the MOI prologue, queen of one of the countries conquered by Kallor and incorporated into his empire - with the exception that she appears to be mortal.

So: either Ardata was, like the Sister of Cold Nights, using a human body and playing around in the mortal world without getting torn to pieces;

Or, Mappo's wrong, and she's just an Ascendant/goddess.

As for Elder Goddesses, we know of only Kilmandaros (my tip for Burn), but Sechul Lath sounds feminine-ish. Cool name anyway.

Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.

#4 Dark Mac

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 04:58 AM

Don't forget about Mother Dark. It'd be pretty cool for her to take a more active role in the series, and she does block out the Light of the moon. Perhaps Mogora will meet up with Rake, and mommy will tell him how to shatter the sword and save the Wagon? Plus, Ardata fits in well with the names of Anomandaris and Andarist (especially Andarist), so why not?

#5 Dolorous Menhir

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 08:39 AM

If you look closely at the quotes, it's all but certain that Mappo's healer is Ardata (with an "h" in MoI prologue) from the MoI prologue. Whether she is in fact one of the other already-named, but unaccounted for, Elder Gods (Sechul Lath, Kilmandaros, Grizzin Farl) or is somebody new to the reader, we don't know.

I doubt she is Mother Dark though, just doesn't seem right. I think, based on the atmosphere of her scene, that she is the Goddess of Spiders or something along those lines (perhaps a more general phrase, like relationships or something.

#6 Guest_FrenchyFan_*

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 08:55 AM

Yup, I vote for Ardata, the Spider godness.

#7 Guest_Ormiss_*

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 09:27 AM

Thanks, it's been a while since I read Memories of Ice, and most of the details have fallen by the wayside. :) Given the hints, it does sound like a good fit, although once again it makes Kallor all the more outrageous - he had an Elder Goddess as a subordinate? Probably not to his knowledge, given how these things tend to work out, but... I have to say, out of all the characters in the books, Kallor is at once one of the most interesting ones and perhaps the most unbelievable. I keep getting the feeling that Kallor had the power to do pretty much whatever he wanted to with the world, yet it seems he was just an extremely skilled fighter-king...? In the present, whether the curse has reduced his power or not, he seems to be rather powerless (though of course Fiddler used to seem rather mundane, too, and now he basically does whatever he wants to.)

I can't help but wonder if Erikson's just leisurely shrouding Kallor in mystery with all these contradictory hints and statements while he considers making up a retroactive explanation for it in the future.

#8 madala

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:39 AM

For what it's worth, here's the quote from MoI (TP pg 14)

" Oh, perhaps Ardatha still held out - always late in sending me my rightful tribute - but I ignored such petty gestures. She has fled, did you know? The bitch. "

Personally I don't think that it indicates that she was a sub-ordinate - conquered probably/

#9 GardenGnome

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 11:03 AM

What you quote is said in context with conquering the continent in a span of 50 years. In sending him tribute, she must somehow recognize him as a superior - allthough grudgingly, as he says she's late with the payment.

I think we should focus more on what is said in BH. First off, I bring you this quote: ""The mark of spiders, Magi," she replied. "The price for healing."" Page 397.

This clearly hints of a spider-aspected healing. What is the lnk between Ardata and spiders? Only the presumed link between Mogora and Ardata, through the healing?

Also, I distinctly remember a conversation between Cotilion and Mogora after the healing, but now I can't - of course - find it.

#10 tiam

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:38 PM

Mogoras healing was of the old ways and she seems very powerful. As for the whole paying tribute i believe that ardatha held an empire in kallors empire if you see what i mean but wasnt completely conqured. Kallor was protectorate of the Ardathas empire and she had to pay tribute. Therefore she still had some of her independence.

I actually thought that Mogora was Ardatha. a bit odd i know but thats what i thought. as for cotilion comment i just thought he meant one of her forms. we know they cn change shape. i just thought it was odd.

Ok i read it like this. Mogoras healing him. This seems a personal thing as shes using so much power and we know the old arts were about blood and actual body parts. Neway all of a sudden Mappo goes into a dream where a woman says 'ahh i am young again' this suggests that Mogora is an elder goddess in human form.

ill get my coat and trott to the Crazy theories

#11 Therion

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Posted 03 June 2006 - 02:07 PM

tiam said:

Ok i read it like this. Mogoras healing him. This seems a personal thing as shes using so much power and we know the old arts were about blood and actual body parts. Neway all of a sudden Mappo goes into a dream where a woman says 'ahh i am young again' this suggests that Mogora is an elder goddess in human form.

ill get my coat and trott to the Crazy theories

I didn't get the impression that Ardatha and Mogora are the same being. I understood it more in the sense that there is now someone else who knows here, beside Mogora. It's a constant theme of the novels that gods who are forgotten fade away.

IMHO, this is similar to the way K'rul was re-empowered by being remembered, and, of course, blood being spilled on his holy sites. I don't recall TBH exactly, but wasn't blood of the wounded Mappo involved in Mogora's ritual? While the site may not have been holy, the ritual as a sort of worship, being performed by (presumably) Ardatha's remaining priestess, might well have that effect.

#12 Roland

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Posted 04 June 2006 - 07:09 AM

Erm, Ardatha said it herself, that she has been hiding all this time, trying not to be noticed. She is a new Elder Godess, not an old one with a new name, and I suppose she had been playing with Kalor all this time.

Btw, Envy called Mappo "Ardatha's own" as well, so it is obvious who the woman was.