[tiam]

maels warren is not likely to be ruse. the mistress of calm seas or waters is called Nerruse. therefore the name and characteristics means that it is likely her warren. so maels warren can likely be either elder ruse (the hold variant) or another warren and the mother to ruse. like tellan to telas. although it may be maels warren maybe high ruse is somehow the hold variation of ruse.

So this begs the question. is high ruse or high denul etc a weak hold version of the aspect. such as when mallcik rel is using high ruse is he using the hold version of ruse. this explains the level of power associated with high magic. im not suggesting that their using the holds but maybe a lesser form of them that still makes them more powerful than warrens

[Dolorous Menhir]

I agree with your speculation on Mael's warren being the Elder parent of Ruse, which remains frustratingly unnamed. Didn't connect Nerruse to it either, but that makes sense.

But I think High (whatever) just denotes a greater level mastery over a warren - when Tattersail uses High Thyr she is just exerting a better or deeper control over the same Thyr that other mages use, not using a different warren.

[Smiles]

I also tend to get the impression that 'High' is associated with the level of mastery rather than access to the Holds.

You more learning and ability that you have allows for a greater control over the energy contained within a warren. It would seem that a weak mage would be fried if he/she released too much from their warren. IIRC Kulp had to fight for control of the power he could access in DHG.

The term 'High Mage' would suggest that they can control more of a warrens energy through experience and therefore have access to a higher level or more potent form of power.

I guess it's a similar thing in Lether, many mages could access the raw Holds, but only a Ceda could access and control truly epic energies.

[Abyss]

Agreed. Look at the effect on the Edur Krisnans for why Elder magic can be a bad thing for the user. Sure, the Edur and Andii and so on have been using 'elder' warrens for millenia, but their races are aspected to those warrens - it's a natural thing.

The Ceda and his undermages seemed very accomplished, but the paucity of mages in the Leth forces suggests they were the very best/strongest, etc, while lesser mages probably died, burnt out or just didn't use magic, unlike the Malazan forces with their apparent abundance of squad mages, cadre mages and High Mages.

So my take is that the difference between warren magic and Elder/Hold magic is the refinement/accessibility of it, along the lines of Corlo's musings in MT.

As for Mael's warren, we haven't heard the name afaik. Mallik Rel was ref'd as using High Ruse, but Tavore suggests he was drawing on Elder power, and the Jhistal are supposed to be linked to Mael, so that certainly suggests a link between Mael's warren and Ruse to my mind.

- Abyss, thus coins the term 'undermage'.

[Danforth]

I thought there was some speculation of the sea being linked to darkness, not sure where that came from but seems like a nice theory.

If there was a House of Sea that would be very interesting. Mael Lord of the Seas, Nerruse Lady of Calm Seas, er their could be that storm dude being the Storm Card etc.

Anyway my point above could be that Nerruse only has power through Mael's warren of Ruse but elder like...

[Abyss]

Does Cap'n Highliner get a position? What about Charlie Tuna? Flipper? The Snorks????

Sorry...

Anyrate, i think Ruse is the human aspected 'modern' example of Mael's warren, much like Shadowthrone's Meanas is the modern Kurald Emurlahn.

- Abyss, resists mentioning Jaws, Aquaman, Spongebob and Jessica Alba.

[PannionDude]

"The Ceda and his undermages seemed very accomplished, but the paucity of mages in the Leth forces suggests they were the very best/strongest, etc, while lesser mages probably died, burnt out or just didn't use magic, unlike the Malazan forces with their apparent abundance of squad mages, cadre mages and High Mages. "

I thought the Letherii had more mages than the Malazans, rather than less. The Queen's force has a bunch. They have the ones that blow up the TE villages. They have the ones that defend the capital city, and of course the Ceda himself. That was part of the reason I was so intimidated by the Tiste Eduur's rolling over the Letherii, because it looked like they could do that to the Malazans too.

[Tiger_sword]

Not sure. The Malazan's don't seam, on the face of things, to have many mages but as weve seen many squads have mages and if you think how many squads there are, well. I should think the average malazan army has easily 100 people with varing levels of magical abilities from healing to high mages (just not many of them left)

While the Letharii seam to have plenty of highly trained mages but fewer within the ranks (of course this is slight speculation as we never saw close up the letharii army) course their all dead now anyway!

[Abyss]

My impression was that the group who nuked the edur village, and the group taken down by the demon, were pretty much the majority. The Queen's army was taken down by the Edur as easily as everyone else.

We know the Malazan army has been subject to severe sorcerous attrition (read: dead mages), but on the whole, i have the impression that the warrens magic is just easier to use.

- Abyss, now that was easy.

[Morgoth]

and the magic of the holds seem mostly destructive in its nature. Warrens on the other hand can be used much more subtely. Take Corlo's abilities and Seren's shock when he used them as an example

[Dark Mac]

I'm fairly sure that the main reason the magic the Edur used was so devastating is that they were using Chaos, which is more harmful than any other type of Elder magic. Just look at what it did to Tayschrenn and Mallet.

[fan_83]

magic of the hold are more broad, it can do more things.. like a swiss army knife.. while warren are specific.. like a philips screwdriver..

hold magic are more jack of all trade master of none stuff.. thats why very few wielder of hold magic reach the required mastery to do the subtle stuff.. look at rake for an example.. he used KG adn SD. the 2 oldest.. and yet he can do subtle stuff.. which i believe is a matter of practice and that with the hold magic being so broad, that it takes a longer time to master it

[tiam]

id say hold magic was more of a destructive fore while warren magic was about refinement and shaping. if tay and the ceda let loose at each other then the ceda would win. but if if it was about enchanting something or another more refined spell then it is likely that tay will do better.

[Stilgar]

I totally agree with you.
SE used to play RPG and I'm wondering which one.
SE magic remind me most of the magic of the RPG RoleMaster.
In this RPG there is magic everywhere.
The mage can learn some list of spell but in some extension almost everyone can learn spell.
There are 3 levels of magic:
- One very coarse, you could do what you want but it cost you a lot and it is very difficult to master, there is no spell just effect.
-The second level is the magic derived from dragon very powerful spell but costly
and difficult.
-In level 3 there is 3 type of access to the magic (mental discipline, god, or using the environment), the spell are very specific.
In this game there is also an extension based only on elemental force,
The mage access the magic by opening path to specific plane, this plane has some master.

[QuickBenDelat]

IIRC in GoTM Mael, says that he has inclinations of what the future holds because the seas 'whisper' of the future account. Wasnt it Mael that told Raest i think it was to freeze the battle that occured between Tiste Andii +Edur and the KKCM because it had importance in the future. (Could this be the sword that Rhulad holds now?)

One other thing, could Hood be in league with Mael? It seems that Hood seems to know some things that others dont. (there was a threat that mentioned that he knew of Heborics iminnent death and thats why he made a deal or something like that)
Do u think the Mael knows the outcome of future events concerning the CG?

[Dolorous Menhir]

That was the MT prologue, and Mael was speaking with Gothos, not Raest. Mael didn't appear in any book (that we know of) before MT.

[GingerBreadMan]

QuickBenDelat said:

IIRC in GoTM Mael, says that he has inclinations of what the future holds because the seas 'whisper' of the future account. Wasnt it Mael that told Raest i think it was to freeze the battle that occured between Tiste Andii +Edur and the KKCM because it had importance in the future. (Could this be the sword that Rhulad holds now?)

One other thing, could Hood be in league with Mael? It seems that Hood seems to know some things that others dont. (there was a threat that mentioned that he knew of Heborics iminnent death and thats why he made a deal or something like that)
Do u think the Mael knows the outcome of future events concerning the CG?

No, if he did then why was he not aware of the Lether invasion beforehand?

Especially since he was so shocked that Tehol was killed, surely if eh could see into the future somewhat he would use that ability to protect himself and those he cares about.

[tiam]

tehol wasnt killed mael sacrificed his anonymity to save him that were therudas buhn appears in MOI.

[Nazaar]

Quote

SE used to play RPG and I'm wondering which one.

IIRC it was GURPS, which is about as freeform a system as you can get. You've got the option of designing your own magic system, which would appeal to a writer who doesn't like working within standard strictures.