[tiam]

yeh moroch nevaths viewpoint is unique in MT. although this was the book were magic was at its most powerful he states that mages do little more than cancel each other out unless one finds itself unopposed. This is interesting considering we always see magic being unstoppable slayer of armies in most books. also the KCCMare the most advanced race relying on sorcery and technology.

The sky keeps for example are the most technologically advanced things weve seen so far. however due to the nature of fantasy there is no source of power other than magic. no electricity or coal powered stations. so while they are magical they are also technological as they have levers and are operated by normal KCCm not just mages moving them round.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Regarding the question of sensing ammo:

We've seen Rake use a kind of sorcerous probe (on Silverfox) and Kamist Reloe "quest" towards opposing armies for information (at some point in HoC). Though I'm not certain, I think these kind of spells are person-centric, ie they focus on sensing where people are, their abilities (ie warren use), perhaps mood - if possible this would probably be a Mockra ability. Inanimate objects are probably not susceptible to this.

Are there any concrete examples of, say, QB, divining the location of some Moranth munitions or a specific artifact that hadn't been previously enchanted?

I doubt such sorcery can be used to find a weapons cache, as fan_83 asserts. We don't see Malazan magic users levitating distant objects, moving things or people (I think Moon's Spawn is a special case, or the result of mundane KCNR tech). This seems a fundamental difference between Malazan magic and, for example, Robert Jordans Saidin/Saidar or "the Force".

Malaz magic seems limited to energy blasts, warren travel, summoning, mental spells (Tays face-changing, the mind-deadening effect on Kalam's ship in DG). (Any other broad magic types seen in the books?)

edit - further types:

Karsa's warren acts as a personal shield
long distance communication (may be a GotMism, we don't see people communicating in the same manner as Baruk & Mammot did in later books. perhaps they just knew some special magical techniques)

[Asandir]

Dolorous Menhir said:

We don't see Malazan magic users levitating distant objects, moving things or people (I think Moon's Spawn is a special case, or the result of mundane KCNR tech). This seems a fundamental difference between Malazan magic and, for example, Robert Jordans Saidin/Saidar or "the Force".

Malaz magic seems limited to energy blasts, warren travel, summoning, mental spells (Tays face-changing, the mind-deadening effect on Kalam's ship in DG). (Any other broad magic types seen in the books?)

Wars of Light and Shadow

That is down to the user. If you came across a smart enough mage he might be more creative than simply cancelling out the opponents magic. Take the ceda for instance drawing the tile of his hold underneath him. A mage of serc could manipulate things around him or another mage if he just thought of doing it. There are those who will come up with ways of manipulating magic in different ways.

If Fid can think of ney way to use MM's(the crossbow/slingshot) I'm sure the mages can come up with advancements.

As for RJ's one power. Just take a look at all the stuff they forgot or didn know. Those from the old days didn think being severed from the one power was reversable, look what happened there.
Creative

[tiam]

no i beleive communication is standard spell. its revisited in HOC when kalam asks sinn to conatct ebron. she says she hasnt got that skill so its likely just for established mages (say kulp standard of mage. not high mage but quite good.) also faradan says that she hasnt asked QB or bottle to communicate with the adjunct

[fan_83]

dolorous: a mage has to quest towards sappers and he will usually find ammo as no one else will be near those guys or the ammo..
so thats easy questing.
daemon: the malaz has not been using moranth for very long time and has not faced up with a unified concerted enemy of near equal strength, once htey did, the high mages will start probing and coutnering moranth ammo

[Dark Mac]

fan_83 said:

dark mac: read gotm in the beginning one of the high mages fired out a fireball towards moon spawn, i think it was akrony's or maybe tay

shamans have the power to divine the location of anyone and most stuff in SE world, in fact ,a card reader should have the ability to divine the location of the traps if they choose to..

i am not making things up but merely picking things up that are already there

Gouts of flame, not fireballs.

And no they don't. Or if they do, that ability is extremely limited. Anomander Rake himself had to depend on the Great Ravens for reconaissance, and I hope you're not suggesting that that's just because Rake is one of the weakest mages around.

fan_83 said:

dolorous: a mage has to quest towards sappers and he will usually find ammo as no one else will be near those guys or the ammo..
so thats easy questing.
daemon: the malaz has not been using moranth for very long time and has not faced up with a unified concerted enemy of near equal strength, once htey did, the high mages will start probing and coutnering moranth ammo

1. How would he find the sappers? The sappers don't usually have their munitions on their persons either, from what we see in DG.

2. They've been using Moranth munitions against Brood, Rake, and the Crimson Guard for quite a while, all of whom have very impressive sorceries at their disposal.

Edit: Condors, Ravens, same difference.

[Illuyankas]

Why do people think that you can sense explosives? Or make them out from a background of more lifeless material? Why didn't any mages sense the oil in the walls at Y'Ghatan? And don't tell me they weren't questing over there, how else would they know of Leoman's lack of mages?

@Dark Mac - I think you mean Rake's Great Ravens.

[Dolorous Menhir]

fan_83 is the one asserting that mages can sense inanimate objects, despite the (apparent) total lack of evidence to back that up.

I think they can quest for people, as we've seen that happen. It seems that this is limited to sensing others with mage abilities or those previously marked (Lorn's tie to Paran). It's my opinion that this is the limit of questing magic in the series.

[fan_83]

rake is a grreat mage but hes not great in all aspect of magic.. he has for example lousy ability in healing.. there are mages, warlocks or shaman hwo have better questing ability.

from what we have seen, sappers are a breed apart, with a different mindset towards stuff and a ready to die attitude.. that should be different enough from teh standard soldier to quest towards
dark mac: majority of the sappers have their ammo near their person at all time. look at fidd carrying his pack when faradan ordered smiles to take all his stuff,.. he would not give up his ammo pack for no reason..
and from the way that the rest of the squad stays away from fidd when he has his ammo out, tells you that they are not the quick to start carrying ammo around

Illu : the mages of the fourteenth was not expecting oil, and therefore not questing for it. my premise is that once a fully equipped army clash with the malaz for a couple of time, they will start searching for the ones who carry and uses them and targets them.. they do not seach for the unexpected and never seen before

darkmac: if gotm says gouts of flame than its my mistake, too used to fireballs

[Illuyankas]

So, they can only search for one thing at a time, and only if they actively focus on it? I'm sorry, it doesn't make much sense. And any army NOT looking for traps during a siege, with every ability open to them, practically deserves to lose men.

[Dark Mac]

fan_83 said:

rake is a grreat mage but hes not great in all aspect of magic.. he has for example lousy ability in healing.. there are mages, warlocks or shaman hwo have better questing ability.

from what we have seen, sappers are a breed apart, with a different mindset towards stuff and a ready to die attitude.. that should be different enough from teh standard soldier to quest towards
dark mac: majority of the sappers have their ammo near their person at all time. look at fidd carrying his pack when faradan ordered smiles to take all his stuff,.. he would not give up his ammo pack for no reason..
and from the way that the rest of the squad stays away from fidd when he has his ammo out, tells you that they are not the quick to start carrying ammo around

Rake may be bad at searching (for whatever reason), but Brood's Host and the Crimson Guard are still there, including countless powerful mages, like the great Cowl and perhaps even Corlo. I still think you're mainly making up this questing ability; you haven't even associated it with a particular warren.

Nobody noticed that Fiddler was a sapper when he was in the fourteenth, so obviously they're not that different.

Most of the munitions supplies are kept with the supply wagons. The sappers just have their own personal stores with them.

[fan_83]

err in the chain of dogs, all the ammo are kept with the sappers.. come on.. we all knwo how volatile and explosive that stuff is and that the sappers are the only ones brave enough or crazy enough to handle it.. do you think that there would be any wagon driver brave enough to drive a cart full of moranth ammo, when a broken wheel could mean the destruction of all their supplies?

and how can you not see fidd as different,, any shaman questing will find fidd in no time, hes halfway ascended with all sort of hangers on with him in the spiritual sense.. and all convo we had with sappers shows that they are remarkably different

also rake tried questing at silverfox in moi and got slapped down.. mages can quest for people, abilities but not special object( my bad)

illu: when you don;t think such a thing is possible you don;t guard against it: ie: pearl harbour, the mages was not expecting leoman to do a mutual destruction move and thus didn;t think leoman would be that crazy to destroy ghatan

[Illuyankas]

Rigging the walls and buildings to collapse on soldiers is very possible. They knew Leoman had experimented with things to combat the munitions (his 'answer' in HOC), and would have checked for more if they could.

[Dark Mac]

fan_83 said:

err in the chain of dogs, all the ammo are kept with the sappers.. come on.. we all knwo how volatile and explosive that stuff is and that the sappers are the only ones brave enough or crazy enough to handle it.. do you think that there would be any wagon driver brave enough to drive a cart full of moranth ammo, when a broken wheel could mean the destruction of all their supplies?

and how can you not see fidd as different,, any shaman questing will find fidd in no time, hes halfway ascended with all sort of hangers on with him in the spiritual sense.. and all convo we had with sappers shows that they are remarkably different

also rake tried questing at silverfox in moi and got slapped down.. mages can quest for people, abilities but not special object( my bad)

The sappers have their stores, and the Seventh had its stores. Both were separate. Munitions aren't quite as volatile as you seem to think they are.

I said that nobody noticed he was different. Which they should have, considering everything special about him, according to you.

He quested at Silverfox, not for her. You see Drukorlat do the same thing to Iron Bars in MT, yet Skinner can't be located except by following his trail.

[fan_83]

dark mac: reread the delivery by teh ttg in hoc or moi, where fidd turned white when they said that they jostled the box a bit..

also the sappers have their own stored which will be stored closed to them..

fidd is different in a spiritual power level kind of way.. anyone looking at rake without any magical knowledge will only see an andii with a long sword.. but with magical sight/scent they can feel his power..

and as i have said, rake is not a master of all skills, there are shamans who can quest for peep,i don;t rememner which book but there was a descrippie..
and if a shaman can quest for people, it stands to reason that there will be mages who can hide their aura/ or some such

[tiam]

fan_83 said:

rake is a grreat mage but hes not great in all aspect of magic.. he has for example lousy ability in healing.. there are mages, warlocks or shaman hwo have better questing ability.

from what we have seen, sappers are a breed apart, with a different mindset towards stuff and a ready to die attitude.. that should be different enough from teh standard soldier to quest towards
dark mac: majority of the sappers have their ammo near their person at all time. look at fidd carrying his pack when faradan ordered smiles to take all his stuff,.. he would not give up his ammo pack for no reason..
and from the way that the rest of the squad stays away from fidd when he has his ammo out, tells you that they are not the quick to start carrying ammo around

Illu : the mages of the fourteenth was not expecting oil, and therefore not questing for it. my premise is that once a fully equipped army clash with the malaz for a couple of time, they will start searching for the ones who carry and uses them and targets them.. they do not seach for the unexpected and never seen before

darkmac: if gotm says gouts of flame than its my mistake, too used to fireballs

how do we know hes a lousy healer? and where is all this doubting about his questing ability? if were talking about silverfox then its due to her being a BC.

[tiam]

fan_83 said:

rake is a grreat mage but hes not great in all aspect of magic.. he has for example lousy ability in healing.. there are mages, warlocks or shaman hwo have better questing ability.

from what we have seen, sappers are a breed apart, with a different mindset towards stuff and a ready to die attitude.. that should be different enough from teh standard soldier to quest towards
dark mac: majority of the sappers have their ammo near their person at all time. look at fidd carrying his pack when faradan ordered smiles to take all his stuff,.. he would not give up his ammo pack for no reason..
and from the way that the rest of the squad stays away from fidd when he has his ammo out, tells you that they are not the quick to start carrying ammo around

Illu : the mages of the fourteenth was not expecting oil, and therefore not questing for it. my premise is that once a fully equipped army clash with the malaz for a couple of time, they will start searching for the ones who carry and uses them and targets them.. they do not seach for the unexpected and never seen before

darkmac: if gotm says gouts of flame than its my mistake, too used to fireballs

how do we know hes a lousy healer? and where is all this doubting about his questing ability? if were talking about silverfox then its due to her being a BC.