[Werthead]

At least on several occasions Dancer is said to have been the Emperor's 'consort' which usually indicates a sexual or closer-than-normal friendship. However, in TBH when we get a lot of 'screen time' with both Shadowthrone and Cotillion, the issue never comes up.

This came up in a talk on another forum about gay characters in fantasy and I mentioned this (along with Renly & Loras in ASoIF and Moiraine & Siuan in WoT), but the other MBF fans there seemed to think it unlikely. Just wondering if anyone else had thoughts on this.

[Dark Mac]

That might be a nice twist, although I sort of doubt it. As I've said before, SE doesn't seem to be a fan of man-on-man relationships. Also, Cotillion hits on Lostara at least once.

[Werthead]

I was just pondering the use of the word 'consort', which has those implications. And Cotillion could swing both ways.

Completely irrelevant to the story, I just thought it was an interesting point.

[Dolorous Menhir]

At what point is Dancer referred to as Consort? Remember "companion" but not "consort", and there's a big difference.

Although I don't remember that being said, I do remember being surprised to find out that Dancer was male in DG, I had just assumed from previous allusions - the companion phrase - that Dancer was female. (plus the name is pretty feminine anyway)

Perhaps NoK readers will know better, but I don't think Kellanved & Dancer's relationship was in any way sexual.

And Maknavox, I thought Apsalar's comments that you refer to, about the three together from the beginning, implied someone other than Dassem Ultor was the third, someone unknown.

It never occured to me that the Knight of Flowers was gay, but now it seems pretty blatant. And Renly too?

Moraine & Suaine though, I don't really see that, despite Jordan's sudden fondness for working "pillow friends" into Knife of Dreams. Those Aes Sedai must get awful lonely in that Tower...

[Ellestra]

It never occured to me and I knew who Ammanas and Cotillion were pretty early in book one. Maybe it's because we only see them after ascension and ST acts weird and is mostly not there and Dancer seems very detached. They care only if somebody of the Old Gaurd dies.

If there was relasionship between them nobody mentions it and they talk about Tavore all the time.

Apsalar also doesn't seem to remember any sex with Emperor

But even if they were it doesn't really matter, after all Malazans doesn't care.

Dolorous Menhir said:

I thought Apsalar's comments that you refer to, about the three together from the beginning, implied someone other than Dassem Ultor was the third, someone unknown.

It was pretty obvious she meant Dassem

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, it wasn't. Admiral Nok, earlier in the book, states that Dassem Ultor joined the "Family" quite late, while Apsalar later claims that the third person had been with Kellanved and Dancer the whole time...

Of course both sources are potentially unreliable, but it's not certain by any means that the third person was Ultor.

[Agraba]

Apsalar pulled a move on Cotillion; she started brushing his cheek gently after all this talk about Crokus and her lonliness. Then he went stiff, and wide-eyed, and she apologized and said she often does stupid things. And at the beginning of the first chapter, the way she was described made her seem a very desirable woman. This seems to support Werthead's argument.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sure, because being a homosexual is the only reason Cotillion would turn down sexual advances from a woman he once possessed and who now seems almost a daughter to him.

[Agraba]

Yup, see you got it.

[Werthead]

Dolorous Menhir said:

At what point is Dancer referred to as Consort? Remember "companion" but not "consort", and there's a big difference.

Although I don't remember that being said, I do remember being surprised to find out that Dancer was male in DG, I had just assumed from previous allusions - the companion phrase - that Dancer was female. (plus the name is pretty feminine anyway)

Perhaps NoK readers will know better, but I don't think Kellanved & Dancer's relationship was in any way sexual.

And Maknavox, I thought Apsalar's comments that you refer to, about the three together from the beginning, implied someone other than Dassem Ultor was the third, someone unknown.

It never occured to me that the Knight of Flowers was gay, but now it seems pretty blatant. And Renly too?

Moraine & Suaine though, I don't really see that, despite Jordan's sudden fondness for working "pillow friends" into Knife of Dreams. Those Aes Sedai must get awful lonely in that Tower...

Yep. In the third book one of the characters has a great line where he says to Loras, telling him to lower his sword (erm) or he'll "shove it somewhere even Renly never found it." Plus GRRM said in an interview, "Yes, they were gay."

Moiraine and Siuan were confirmed as being more-than-just-close-friends in New Spring. Although with the Aes Sedai it's made clear that a lot of the pillow-friend stuff is hormonal and perhaps not meant to mean that a character is 100% gay, just experimenting (either that or RJ suddenly realised his most ardent fans were puberty-stricken young men).

Kellenvad and Dancer I'm half-and-half on, but there does seem to be some very circumstantial evidence. And I'm sure that SE is an equal-opportunities author, so if he has lesbian (Tavore) and bisexual (Stonny) characters, he probably has gay ones around as well.

[Midnight]

I don't think that Dance and Kellanved are gay simply because they are often referred to as partners and it seems that their parternship is something much more complex, being lovers seems a bit of a cop out. Besides, Kellanved and Dancer seemed too obsessed with arcane power to care about sex

interesting idea though...

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't know about other people, but the idea that Kellanved & Dancer were gay lovers just seems wrong.

And not in a bigoted homophobic way, it just doesn't seem in character for either of them. Particularly Kellanved.

[MecnunK]

Werthead said:

Yep. In the third book one of the characters has a great line where he says to Loras, telling him to lower his sword (erm) or he'll "shove it somewhere even Renly never found it." Plus GRRM said in an interview, "Yes, they were gay."

Moiraine and Siuan were confirmed as being more-than-just-close-friends in New Spring. Although with the Aes Sedai it's made clear that a lot of the pillow-friend stuff is hormonal and perhaps not meant to mean that a character is 100% gay, just experimenting (either that or RJ suddenly realised his most ardent fans were puberty-stricken young men).

Kellenvad and Dancer I'm half-and-half on, but there does seem to be some very circumstantial evidence. And I'm sure that SE is an equal-opportunities author, so if he has lesbian (Tavore) and bisexual (Stonny) characters, he probably has gay ones around as well.

Where in new spring are S&M quoted as being pillow friends? We know for sure some others are..like Elaida and that Athan mere woman. RJ only seems to only show lesbians and no males seem homosexsual. Also rest of the series doesnt seem consistant with Moirane's being that way inclined.

Renly and loras were pretty obvious but KD & Dancer , It's not even implied anywhere as far as I remember.

[Svaran]

and the two necromacers?

[Serrat]

Svaran said:

and the two necromacers?

Nope. One of them is a eunuch. None of that going on between them.

And as to Kellanved and Dancer, I really don't think so, the tone of their relationship seems to be one of mutual understanding, but also a mutual distancing. People of equal or near equal power tend to keep at arms reach of each other to ensure their own contiunued safety.

[Nazaar]

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At least on several occasions Dancer is said to have been the Emperor's 'consort' which usually indicates a sexual or closer-than-normal friendship.

Could we get some page refs on these several occasions? It's something I never even thought of.

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Then he went stiff, and wide-eyed, and she apologized and said she often does stupid things.

Ah yes, but what is meant by 'stiff'? ...

More likely, as mentioned, the idea of being with someone who's pretty much part himself is a bit of a turn off. Cotillion doesn't strike me as a complete narcissist. Plus the whole father daughter thingy too.

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Men are titillated by women doing each other almost as much, just as much, or more than a heterosexual toss in the hay. Don't expect to see male/male relationships with male authors. Most are uncomfortable with it.

It's a little more complex than that. The worlds created by the authors are socially very similar to the ones they live in. Sure, women are a bit tougher, but apart from that interactions are pretty much the same. As such, the idea of women being known as in a relationship is a lot less shocking than the idea of two men in a similar one. That's one of the reasons why I'd be extremely surprised if there were several references to a D and K "consortium" as it were...

[GingerBreadMan]

Like others, I doubt it. Wasn't Surly his consort?

Dancer is either bisexual or hetro as he has had relationships with women(from what I remember).

Same goes for Kellanved, but to complicate matters I cannot imagine him having sex. I can imagine Dancer as he still seems human, but ST doesn't seem to be nearly as human. Doesn't he prefer a shadow figure, which I imagine makes it difficult to do the nasty.

[tiam]

as for the third person nok never mentioned and apsaar did. on a reread it is hinted that it wasnt dassem. at least thats what i thought. on the list that nok gives i think dassem comes after dujek and aps ses that before even dujek. dunno bout that one