[Dark Mac]

Bonecasters aren't as powerful as people say. We haven't seen any Bonecasters do anything impressive, all we know about their power is merely hearsay.

But your theory is pretty much stated outright in Dryjhna's PoV, where we see her draining the life of countless friendly spirits. I doubt they can drain everyone's power though (Calm, Ganath, Aramala, etc. all seem to be just fine).

[Morgoth]

Dark Mac said:

Bonecasters aren't as powerful as people say. We haven't seen any Bonecasters do anything impressive, all we know about their power is merely hearsay.

Your statement conflicts with itself.

However, we have not seen the bonecasters do anything directly as such, and so one could assume that their powers are not battle aspected as such. They don't send rolling waves of power to destroy their enemies.. If they could, they would certainly have done that against the Kell Hunters in MoI.

I dunno how they use their powers, or the limits on it. It is however, unescapable that Raest with control of a bonecaster would be incredibly much more powerfull than he already was. And people do seem to fear them.

[fan_83]

look back at gotm.. where tattersail talk about when the imass bonecaster start a war, they made the incident at pale seems like a child plaything..

does that not tell you about the capabilities of a bonecaster.. also not to mention taht as mages, they get more powerful as they age, and the imass are one of the oldest.. look at hood.. hes not ready to face the imass when they cheated him their souls..

the bonecasters are powerful.. and they maybe vampiric to help fuel their wars.. or also the fact that, the janghut are still too powerful to kill but can merely be imprison

in moi, they didn't care about being destroyed remember.. they were attracted by the ascension of the beast hold

[Dolorous Menhir]

As fan_83 mentions - in GotM Tattersail says that an Imass bonecaster has only appeared once on the Empire's behalf, and that was Olar Ethil at Kartool - an exchange of sorcery that made the Enfilade at Pale look like a mere cantrip.

It's pretty ridiculous to assert that a group which includes Olar Ethil - who's Soletaken form is as an undead twin to Tiam - among their number is really not that powerful.

[Dark Mac]

Olar Ethil is acknowledged to be the greatest of the Imass Bonecasters. Her power doesn't reflect on the others at all. Not every human mage is as powerful as Tayschrenn, so why should all Bonecasters be as powerful as Olar Ethil.

And again, all these comments on their power are no more than hearsay. Until we see otherwise, I'll continue to believe that people like Quick Ben, Rake, Tayschrenn, and Icarium are more powerful than any Bonecaster.

[GingerBreadMan]

Any Bonecaster? So QB is mroe powerful than Olar Ethill? I don't think so.


QB is not one of the most powerful mages, he is just a hell of a lot smarter.

Rake is top dog among Tiste Andii so he is probably more powerful than most Bonecasters, but who knows if he can match Olar.

Icarium-Big question mark, obviously very powerful but we still have yet to see him go against a major power like Tayschrenn, Rake, etc..although QB was impressive.

I am willing to say Bonecasters are more powerful than nearly any other group, but of course there is a range of power. The weakest bonecaster may be as weak as a squad mage, but I doubt it as they would have been killed in their wars. So all the remaining bonecasters must be quite powerful to have survived their wars.

Here is an idea for why the Bonecasters did not seem to let loose on the Kell Hunters, perhaps they specialize in taking energy from living beings thus they are not nearly as effective against other "undead" beings. Some sort of necromantic art perhaps?

[Illuyankas]

Or they were to save their power for the Seer, or if it was needed urgently. Though it would have meant many losses for the Imass, I doubt the Bo0necasters felt they needed to expend the power needed to save the non-Bonecasters from resting in pieces while destroying the Hunters.

And we've seen a bit of power from Kilava.

[Dark Mac]

We see Icarium destroy Monok Ochem with barely a thought. QB actually lasted quite a while, even after Icarium had powered up more. He may not be able to beat Olar, but she's more than just a Bonecaster.

[Morgoth]

We saw Icarium suprised as QB hit him with either 6 or twelve warrens.. We Saw Icarium melt a Bonecaster. Bonecasters I wish to point out, were able to fight Jaghut sorceries, which by itself is a mighty feat indeed.

But my original argument, which I personly think counts in favour of bonecasters being very powerfull, is the fear that Raest would get control of a bonecaster and then become next to all powerful.

Considering also, the amount of fear the bonecasters tend to inspire, I hardly think human mages can match them.. Kilava was ready to take on the seer and seemed confident to win, didn't she?

[Jheral]

Morgoth said:

We saw Icarium suprised as QB hit him with either 6 or twelve warrens..

Actually, I think what he used was 'spells', prepared beforehand, and with only 4 warrens (Bonehunters p835):

Quote

He had unveiled four warrens, woven an even dozen sorcerous spells, all eager to be sprung loose - his hands itched, then burned, as if he was repetedly dipping them in acid.

I'd guess that it was those that he used against Icarium, though of course I could be wrong.

[Whelp]

Bonecasters vs human mages:
Imho it is a question of Holds vs Warrens - Tellan is described as Elder several times.

Also, I like Daemon's argument.

[namo]

Jheral said:

Actually, I think what he used was 'spells', prepared beforehand, and with only 4 warrens (Bonehunters p835):

I'd guess that it was those that he used against Icarium, though of course I could be wrong.

I agree. Also, pure speculation on my part, but if he didn't have anything prepared he would have probably been forced to resort to pure energy, like against Korbal & Bauchelain, which seems to be a lot more draining (or is it solely because of the number of warrens ? but there must be some advantage to preparing the spells...).

Morgoth said:

Bonecasters I wish to point out, were able to fight Jaghut sorceries, which by itself is a mighty feat indeed.

This is the main argument for me. We haven't seen the Bonecasters fight, but we've seen what they've been up against.

[Dark Mac]

Daemon said:

But concerning their combined power I think they are nearly invincible: They were able to put into effect one of the most powerful rituals ever conducted and to eradicate almost the entire Jaghut population, whereas an average single Imass bonecaster is most likely not a match for a Jaghut.

Many people here believe that the Avowed went through a similar ritual, and they were as human as anyone else.

I never quite understood what was meant with Raest possessing a Bonecaster, since he was only able to possess Mammot thanks to the link between them. The only way he'd be able to possess a Bonecaster would be if they had some secret weakness.

As for the Jaghut, I doubt that all of them are as powerful as Gothos and Raest.

[Morgoth]

Some believe that the Avowed went through a ritual similar to the Imass. I doubt this, but since we know next to nothing about the ritual of the avowed, It can hardly be used as proof of humans being on par with bonecasters.

Why would he only be able to possess a bonecaster that way? Do you have anything what so ever to back this up? We do not know how a tyrant possess others, all we know is that he can. As to why he didn't possess his attackers; he seemed certain of victory so why should he? When Tool appeared, things probably happend too fast, so Raest reached out through a link already created. Probably much simpler..

And we all know that most Jaghut are not on the same level as Gothos and Raest. However we know without a doubt that they were powerfull nevertheless. Consider the fact that every Jaghut fought by the imass was counted as a war. We've yet to meet a single jaghut not in possession of powers far beyond that of any mortal human we've encountered as of yet, possibly out of reach of any ascendant human as well, though on that I wouldn't wager anything.

[GingerBreadMan]

Perhaps the fear of Raest posessing a bonecaster is due to the Bonecasters unique ability to "Steal" life energy?

Couldn't that allow Raest to gain power via the bonecaster creating "soul power"?

[fan_83]

the avowed did that but not to such an extreme as the imass did.. actions undertaken by individuals or groups have an effect on their power level, the action of the imass as a whole probably compunds their effect of the ritual

also regarding reast: it seems that the ritual manifested somehow in the relations between members of a clan, there seems to be linkage between clans members, that every clan member can know or feel what is happening..
that is hwy tool was chosen so that if he was enslaved, his whole clan will not be enslaved along with him..

now with teh bonecasters.. perhaps the the bonecasters have also a similar link along them all when they cast the ritual, that if reast manage to enslave a bonecaster he owuld in effect enslave all bonecasters and thus also include their clans

jsut a theory

[Cedeos]

fan_83 said:

the avowed did that but not to such an extreme as the imass did.. actions undertaken by individuals or groups have an effect on their power level, the action of the imass as a whole probably compunds their effect of the ritual

also regarding reast: it seems that the ritual manifested somehow in the relations between members of a clan, there seems to be linkage between clans members, that every clan member can know or feel what is happening..
that is hwy tool was chosen so that if he was enslaved, his whole clan will not be enslaved along with him..

now with teh bonecasters.. perhaps the the bonecasters have also a similar link along them all when they cast the ritual, that if reast manage to enslave a bonecaster he owuld in effect enslave all bonecasters and thus also include their clans

jsut a theory

I agree that a ritual of the Avowed would be of a much weaker extend than that of the Imass. Making them perhaps "undying" but not giving them the power the Imass gained through their ritual (e.g. travelling as dust). Also there was not established a link, which makes the Imass able to act as a whole.
But I do not get the point what you mean by enslave? Controlling the mind and/or will of a bonecaster? Because that would be the only way to gain power over the bonecaster of a clan. If the link works like that - controlling one means controlling all. Slight doubts.
But I would definitely give Daemon's point of the combined wills of the bonecaster a thought. Could be that is their real strength. Being able to focus all together on the same thing through the link. (Just like the Borg )

[GingerBreadMan]

Which would raise the question,Why do more than one Bonecaster travel to their various destinations? If they can "share" their power via a link, wouldn't they just sit around in a cave and send whoever drew the short straw to do their business?