[blewin]

He's a funny man, and he has succeeded in his disguise as a pathetic man who is only interested in sweets. Brainless, seemingly harmless.

But Kruppe's dream.... is it a warren? except what he's housing in this dream are spirits. uh, I think I'm lost. Magic in SE's world comes from warrens, so his dream must be some kind of a warren?

[Dr Trouble]

I was curious about this myself. I always just asumed Kuppes mind was a world unto itself. But thinking about it, It seems unlikely.

[Hume]

I dont think it is warrens, I think he merely has the capacity to access warrens at times or at will when he dreams.

Krul has something do to with maybe as well.

[Lord of Salvation]

He only accessed one specific place correct? The dreamworld for the Beast thrones, where the T'lan Imas bonecasters go, and the Ay.

But wasnt there a passage which stated that Tool was responsible for its creation.

[blewin]

Tool??? that I don't recall at all.

[Lord of Salvation]

Hmm I remember Pran Chloe saying something of the sort, it is a dreamworld after all where the spirits go to rest, I would have to look up the passage but when Pran and Silverfox meet after Itkovian has given them their gift he mentions Onos, so I could be wrong but I will have to look.

[Nade]

I think the whole kruppe's warren thing is more K'rul's doing if anything. I think Kruppe is a Genius, as in genius of the highest order, unbelievably intelligent, possessing vast amount of knowledge, and thats why K'rul chose him to help him out in his endeavours. Of course, he is disguised as bumbling idiot.

Kinda like,....Tehol Beddict in MT. Im not going to reveal anything (havent even finished MT, but man...that guy is a GENIUS)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kruppe was dreaming before K'rul was awakened. His dreams are unexplained, but I think that Kruppe's mind is simply a world in itself.

[SiriusL]

There was some relationship between Silverfox and Tool, but I'm not sure it had anything to do with the dreamworld.

The Beast Hold is not the same warren as the dreamworld, is it? I thought the Beast Hold was something like the most ancient Hold around, older even than the Elder gods. It was the spiritworld of the Imass before the Ritual of Telann.

I'm rereading MoI right now, so maybe this is answered, but I'm still confused by the whole dream thing.

1. Silverfox, Krul, Pran Chole, and Kruppe worked together to create a dreamworld for the spirits of the T'lan Imass.

2. They somehow transferred this dreamworld over to the Mhybe.

3. The dreamworld is connected to the Beast Hold, somehow.

4. The dreamworld is now populated with the memories of the T'lan Imass, thanks to Itkovian.

5. Is this in any way related to the answer to QB's question about Burn? "Why does Burn sleep?" "To dream!"

[Lord of Salvation]

Silverfox was fashioned within a memory of Tool's I believe, which serves as a dream world to the likes of Krupe and others.

At least that is how I saw it, and then the Beast world is a separate entity I thought, if not it is of little consequence anyway.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Silverfox was made in Kruppe's dream in MoI. The Tattersail-Nightchill zombie was created with the influence of Tool's Tellan "dead zone", but the scene where Silverfox was created in the Mhybe's womb took place in Kruppe's dreamworld, not Tool's. (Kruppe, K'rul, Pran Chole, dead Tattersail, dead Nightchill, dead Bellurdan, the Mhybe in attendance, not Tool)

edit: in MoI? I mean GotM.

[Lord of Salvation]

Ok so the gathering of souls was done in Tools memory of Tellan while the culmination of the "Final Product" being Silverfox was done in Kruppe's dream, which does have strong connections to K'rull correct?

On a side is Kruppes dream one and the same with the spirit world the Beast Throne occupies and the Ay inhabit? If that is the case than all those spirits including Pran Chloe which he did of course could lend their powers to Silverfox.

[SiriusL]

Hetan said:

The world where the Beast Throne resides is the Mybhe's dream.

If that's the case, where was the place Paran visited near the beginning of the book (when he first went to the Finnest House and stepped through the Beast Hold card)? Paran says it is both the Beast Hold and the Imass' former spiritworld. I gather that they abandoned it when the performed the Ritual of Tellan. Does this mean it just went away, or was it hanging out for anyone to visit?

Spoiler

Moreover, in HoC, Karsa learns that the "spiritworld" his tribal elders visit is actually the spiritworld of the T'lan Imass (more specifically the Faces in the Rock). Or is it? Is that really the Tellan warren? Doesn't Karsa also travel through Tellan during his search for the Jhag horse?

[Lord of Salvation]

They are probably one and the same. Remember the Imass are notorious for invading all species sacred/holy ground.

I dont think it is the Myhbe's dream, no ownership, of course that is where she went, but so did Kruppe and it just happens to be the same place where Tool's memory takes them.

[SiriusL]

Lord of Salvation said:

They are probably one and the same. Remember the Imass are notorious for invading all species sacred/holy ground.

I dont think it is the Myhbe's dream, no ownership, of course that is where she went, but so did Kruppe and it just happens to be the same place where Tool's memory takes them.

Well, the Imass spiritworld existed well before the Mhybe or Silverfox or any of that. I think the implication is that the warren Paran visited was the abandoned spiritworld of the Imass. Since the dreamworld was created in GoTM or MoI, I don't see how they could be one and the same.

But, as I've said...I'm confused. :lachen70:

I'm not sure about the Imass invading anything--the impression I had is that it was theirs from the beginning.

[Lord of Salvation]

SiriusL said:

Since the dreamworld was created in GoTM or MoI, I don't see how they could be one and the same.

I'm not sure about the Imass invading anything--the impression I had is that it was theirs from the beginning.

Umm the dreamworld existed countless millenia before the Mybhe ventured there I thought. Since before the ritual, since Pran Chloe was still Flesh and Blood.

Yeah the beast spirit world was theres only because there was no assertive owners since they were lost and long forgotten. But now they have returned.

[SiriusL]

Lord of Salvation said:

Umm the dreamworld existed countless millenia before the Mybhe ventured there I thought. Since before the ritual, since Pran Chloe was still Flesh and Blood.

Hence my confusion. The dreamworld--originally dreamed by Kruppe, and which is now dreamed by the Mybhe--is it new, or is it the actual spiritworld that the Imass "used" prior to the ritual? If it's the same spiritworld, why did Kruppe and the Mybhe need to dream it?

And that brings up again my other questions: Burn sleeps to dream, but what the hell does that mean? Is the world her dream? If Brood wakes her up, does the world just end?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kruppe's dreams are independent of everything else. He had them before K'rul was reawakened in GotM, and they have nothing to do with the Imass spiritworld or the Mhybe's dream. Kruppe is unique and independent, and although he was an ally of K'rul by the time of MoI he became the Eel during K'rul's absence from the world.

SiriusL said:

And that brings up again my other questions: Burn sleeps to dream, but what the hell does that mean? Is the world her dream? If Brood wakes her up, does the world just end?

That's something I don't really understand, I wrote a thread about it once in the MT & BH forums if you want to venture over there. The main point of contention is that MoI appears to establish that Burn is dreaming the world, and waking her will end it. But the world is much older than her dream...

Seems to be, waking her would not destroy the world but rather "reset" it. By which I mean the entire surface of the world destroyed, perhaps by a global earthquake, with loss of all civilisation and maybe even all life. The world would not be destroyed though, it would still exist for recolonisation from other warrens. But everyone who couldn't flee to a warren for the duration would die (note only Malazworld is believed to be "Burn's dream", the warrens would probably not be affected by an awakening).

I don't like that explanation very much though, it seems lacking.

[Lord of Salvation]

Thats what I was just going to say. By waking her up, it will set pre ordained events to unfold. Her cognicant mind entering the fray will remake/awaken the world once again and shape it to her presence.

By becomming active the world will change to suite her, mountains will fall, tides will swell... until her stirring awake is settled.

The earth as a whole will still exist from the core upwards, but the surface life will be remade as the tremors from her awakening will reverberate through the earth until it escapes into some energy source on the surface.