[Sir Thursday]

While I didn't rate A Game of Thrones that highly, I can say that after A Clash of Kings I am thoroughly hooked. I can't quite work out why though...on the plus side:

+ The intrigue is top notch - sometimes authors try to get away with saying that politics is a complicated and devious business without actually displaying any behaviour of that sort; not so with Martin. I thought Tyrion's political manipulations were top notch.

+ There is a wider sense of epic now: with an ice storyline and a fire storyline, it really feels like it is much broader now.

+ Slightly more pressing hints of impending doom than in A Game of Thrones, where I couldn't see much in the way of urgency.

+ There's a bit more magic now.

+ The situation is set up well for later books - particularly the slight cliffhanger in Catelyn's POV.

Onto the negatives:

- The POVs are dominated by children (i.e. under 18). I much prefered the adult sections: Tyrion, Catelyn and Davos to Arya, Sansa, Daenarys (sp?), Jon, Bran and Theon. Though for the most part Martin does a good job of accommodating for their youths, I think it would benefit from some more adult POVs.

- One of the supposed positives of the series was that Martin is unafraid to kill of major characters. I didn't really see much of that in ACOK: without revealing names, it is the slightly less likeable characters that meet their dooms, rather than any of the direwolf kids. In fact, resurrection syndrome reared its head a couple of times. It was obvious to me that Martin wouldn't kill anyone off camera, and I can't see him killing off Tyrion either: too likeable. To me this would seem to illustrate some predictability in this sphere.

Overall Conclusion: Good enough to engross me, but not my favourite.

To those who have read all four books so far, please comment on whether my points hold true in later novels/try to convince me that Martin should be #1 or 2 on my list...but try to keep the spoilers behind spoiler tags...

Thanks,

Vox

[McLovin]

Seems like your experience with GRRM matched mine. I thought AGOT was OK when I first read it (and like you, not sure why I didn't like it at first, now that I have more context I love re-reading it, maybe that's it - I couldn't really see where GRRM was trying to go the first time), then really got into it with ACOK, and for pretty much the same reasons you did. I won't go into specifics, but if you liked ACOK, you'll absolutely love ASOS (A Storm of Swords, book #3).

The best part of this series is the characters. Like I've said in another thread, it's like he's not making these people up - he has really met them somehow and is just recording what they say and do. They feel that real to me - they totally draw me into the story.

Sometimes I think SE is my favorite fantasy author, but mostly now, I say it's GRRM...

[Dolorous Menhir]

vox said:

Onto the negatives:

- The POVs are dominated by children (i.e. under 18). I much prefered the adult sections: Tyrion, Catelyn and Davos to Arya, Sansa, Daenarys (sp?), Jon, Bran and Theon. Though for the most part Martin does a good job of accommodating for their youths, I think it would benefit from some more adult POVs.

It's not really a spoiler, but in later books both

Spoiler

Jaime and Cersei Lannister

become POV characters, and they are most definitely adults.

vox said:

- One of the supposed positives of the series was that Martin is unafraid to kill of major characters. I didn't really see much of that in ACOK: without revealing names, it is the slightly less likeable characters that meet their dooms, rather than any of the direwolf kids. In fact, resurrection syndrome reared its head a couple of times. It was obvious to me that Martin wouldn't kill anyone off camera, and I can't see him killing off Tyrion either: too likeable. To me this would seem to illustrate some predictability in this sphere.

If you want to see some unexpected plot twists, and even the deaths of major characters, then you are going to lap up A Storm of Swords. It really is excellent. The timelines have blurred together a bit for me, but if I remember right a lot of seriously shocking things will happen in the next book. And I do mean genuinely shocking. I actually felt real anger at some points. I felt like breaking things, specifically (ASOS spoiler)

Spoiler

Lord Frey's f***ing face.

vox said:

Overall Conclusion: Good enough to engross me, but not my favourite.

To those who have read all four books so far, please comment on whether my points hold true in later novels/try to convince me that Martin should be #1 or 2 on my list...but try to keep the spoilers behind spoiler tags...

Thanks,

Vox

So yeah, your points don't really hold true for the next book. If you thought aCoK was lacking in an event on the level of Ned in aGoT, then aSoS will definitely make up for it. Go buy it now.

I was in a similar situation, I bought aGoT and read it slowly, I liked it but not overwhelmingly. Once it was done I was in no hurry to read the next, didn't bother to pick it up til I had some free time at Christmas...but as soon as I'd finished aCoK I was straight back to the bookstore buying the aSoS parts 1 & 2. And then I had to wait for aFfC...and now I'm resigned to however many years the next one takes.

It'll be worth it though.

[Werthead]

ACoK don't get a huge amount of respect, which is odd given that Tyrion is at his finest here (he's still great in A Storm of Swords, but the ending of A Clash of Kings will have revealed that he ain't in charge no more) and there is the Battle of the Blackwater, which is awesome, especially Tyrion ordering the Hound out onto the battlefield only for him to bottle it and Tyrion leads the charge instead. Staggering stuff.

And about the death I think you were talking about in ACoK, re-read that last chapter of his.

Spoiler

Carefully.

A Storm of Swords is even huger than the two books before it and has, at last count, about half a dozen events bigger than Ned's death in Book 1. It's a seriously staggering piece of work. Also, whilst they're still important, the kids do drop off slightly in terms of page-count. IIRC, Bran, Arya and Sansa are still important but Jon, Dany (both of whom I consider adults by the start of ASoS, Jon especially), Tyrion, Davos, the two new POVs and Cat come a bit more to the fore.

AFFC is a definite (and to some, jarring) tonal and dramatic shift in the series but overall I found it very good. And I think you'll particularly like the increased emphasis on the adult characters.

[Sir Thursday]

Werthead said:

And about the death I think you were talking about in ACoK, re-read that last chapter of his.

Spoiler

Carefully.

Herein lies the problem with not mentioning things directly...I'm not sure which character you are talking about!

I'll probably order ASOS off Amazon to save some money...it seems I can get the American single volume for £5, a very good deal. It will be part of my mega order upon finishing school (see the recommendations thread)

Vox

[Werthead]

Spoiler

Theon

[Agraba]

I really liked A Game of Thrones, but of course, I have justification. I just finished Wheel of Time, and the most recent book I read was Crossroads of Twilight. So now you understand.

I love the series. Except the one thing that annoys me most is Danaerys's part. And it annoys me even though she's a pivotal character. And, having not read a Feast for Crows yet, I say a Storm of Swords is the highlight. If you feel any sense of security for the characters you sympathise with, expect GRRM to rip it up and throw it in the trash.

[Sir Thursday]

@Werthead:

Upon reread, I see what you mean about

Spoiler

Theon not actually being dead.

The other deaths I had in mind were the two kings, who we didn't really get to know all that well.

@Agraba:

That could explain why I didn't think A Game of Thrones was so great: I read it right after Midnight Tides, which happens to be my favourite book of all time.

Vox