[Mortal Sword]

He seems to generate either a love hate relationship from people, but the more we find out about him, from possibly being a walking warren, to one of the few of a thought to be extinct people who havent been seen around (though I find this odd, since the Malazan Empire had a High Mage who was Theloman Toblakai).

I tend to appreciate how the character has growen, and instead of becomming completly disslusioned with his won quest, he seems to have developed a singular will.... which always makes me think of Rakes first sword, which Traveller seems to be running around with these days, not that Karsa would give up his sword... just seems that Its sheer will and determination and complete belief in himself that allows him to do some of these things.

How can a walking warren exist in a Toblakai... if blood oil is used so much?

[Agraba]

He's okay...

[Abyss]

Howdo you not love a dude who throws away his sword and death-punches a K'chain Nahruk in the brain?

Re: Bellurdan - he had been around for decades, probably hanging with Nightchill since the Fall on Draconus's recommendation (MoI prologue). And he was full blooded Thelomen Toblakai. Karsa's Teblor seemed to have fallen a bit, tho not as much as the tribes closer to the Malazan border.


As for the walking warren question, Toblakai is an elder warren. And bloodoil is not 'pure' Otataral. Maybe the two reacted to this result.

- Abyss, loves a good death-punch to the brain. Metaphorically speaking.

[Morgoth]

Wasn't belurdan a Fenn? A waterded down version of the TT..

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, Bellurdan was described as Thelomen Toblakai from the start. I don't think we've met any Fenns yet in the series.

[Sir Thursday]

How many different types of Toblakai are there anyway? Thelomen, Tarthenal, Fenn, any more?...Do the names just refer to different tribes or are there physiological differences?

I'm curious.

Vox

[Abyss]

Tarthenal Thelomen Toblakai - pureblooded, ancient apparently powerful big - Bellurdan.

Teblor - Karsa's people, and the more 'diluted' tribes, Sunyd, etc. Karsa's people have the extra wrinkles of the bloodoil/otataral and whatever the Seven Rocky Faces were up to.

Tarthenal - Letherii version of Karsa's diluted tribes. - Ublala and that other guy who killed the mass murderer guy at the end of MT.

Trell - apparently a more beastial version, but related somehow. Don't care to speculate on just what the original TTTs were messing with to end up with Mappo and his people.

Fenn - unseen, but also apparently beastial. Curiously, Fenn were noted as one of the makers of the Silandah, iirc.

Bhargast - possibly an Imass/TTT spin-off.

- Abyss, just having fenn.

[Smiles]

Abyss said:

Howdo you not love a dude who throws away his sword and death-punches a K'chain Nahruk in the brain?

Exactly, love him!

He's going to go far that lad.

[Red_orbiT]

Not to forget about Jhag(TTT/Jaghut)... Icarium anyone?

[Dark Mac]

I liked him quite a lot in book 4, but not so much in book 6. The personal Warren thing seems a bit silly to me, especially since the blood oil repels other Elder Warrens. His fight against the KCNR was also unimpressive, given how easily some other characters defeat them.

[Therion]

Abyss said:

Howdo you not love a dude who throws away his sword and death-punches a K'chain Nahruk in the brain?

You took the words from my mouth . But seriously, when I read HoC the first time, I was annoyed with him in the beginning, but got some sort of grudging respect by the time he hands out judgment in Sha'ik's Camp. Second time through HoC, he kinda grew on me, and TBH made me like him even more.

[Therion]

Dark Mac said:

I liked him quite a lot in book 4, but not so much in book 6. The personal Warren thing seems a bit silly to me, especially since the blood oil repels other Elder Warrens. His fight against the KCNR was also unimpressive, given how easily some other characters defeat them.

Uhhh... but Otataral doesn't affect Elder Warrens at all. Coming to think of it, I seem to recall that Binadas' magical assault on Karsa in the Nascent failed - but I don't recall if the magic, most likely Kurald Emurlahn rather than the CG's chaotic power, failed to have an effect at all... Karsa was pretty fast with the spear, wasn't he ?

Regarding the KCNR - which other characters have fought them?? I recall undead KCCM Kell Hunters in MoI, which required quite a beating to be taken out of business, even by the T'lan Imass or the T'lan Ay. And it was stated in MoI that a live Kell Hunter would be much harder kill... one could probably ask the Edur and Andii after the battle in the beginning of MT .

The only other time KCNR appeared in action was when they killed Ganath (sp?), the female Jaghut in TBH - no big fight at all.

[Dark Mac]

Karsa defeats at various points: Tellann, Omtose Phellack, Kurald Emurlahn, Chaos, and the Empty Hold. All Elder, all ineffectual.

Silchas Ruin takes out KCNR by the bucketload, and the Seguleh demolish K'ell Hunters with the greatest of ease, as does Tool. Although these guys are the best of the best, it does prove to me that Karsa isn't nearly as powerful as they are.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

Silchas Ruin takes out KCNR by the bucketload, and the Seguleh demolish K'ell Hunters with the greatest of ease, as does Tool. Although these guys are the best of the best, it does prove to me that Karsa isn't nearly as powerful as they are.

When did Ruin fight KCNR? If you are talking about the MT prologue, that was the last remnants of the KCCM. And as noted above the K'ell Hunters are undead, and so perhaps less dangerous?

I don't know how you can assert that Karsa is weaker than Tool & the Seguleh just based on experiences of them fighting different creatures (unarmed against a KCNR versus undead KCCM). If anything I would say that Karsa is perhaps THE unstoppable character of the series.

[Dark Mac]

Was it KCCM in the prologue? I thought that they were called short-tails, and that they used Sky Keeps. The KCCM didn't use Sky Keeps.

When was the term KCNR first used? Before people started using that term, it seemed that all KC were KCCM, just that their were KCCM short-tails and KCCM long-tails.

Okay, let's say Karsa throws away his sword to fight Mok. Mok then cuts off his head. Throwing away his sword was a testament to Karsa's stupidity, nothing more.

And I doubt that Karsa would stand a chance against Ruin. Ruin manages to take out three Toblakai GODS at one time, and defeats piles of FA. Ruin could very well be even stronger than Rake.

[Smiles]

Karsa probably threw his sword away because it was unarmed, not through stupidity, he has a bloody minded sense of honour.

As for fighting the rest we'lll have to wait and witness.

[Illuyankas]

The KCNR didn't have a sword, or any weapons at all. As for the terms, I doubt I started the trend but I did begin using KCNR for the Short-tails (K'Chain Nath'Ruk) after I got TBH, back in February, because acronyms are just easier. And the prologue KCCM had both long and short-tails, as they hadn't rebelled against the Matrons yet.

[Dolorous Menhir]

But the MT prologue KCCM were the last of the dying civilisation, and we know that the NR rebellion was one of the cause of that fall. So a rebellion must have already occured.

Perhaps the KCNR in other regions had rebelled but these ones had not for some reason.

[Murrin]

The prologue of MT states that the K'Chain they were fighting were one of the last big groups left - and that the other group left wouldn't last long, because a rebellion had broken out.


Warrens Karsa has beaten: The Empty Hold is a derivative of Emurlahn (suspected), Emurlahn itself is weak (Tavore's sword would have pushed back the Whirlwind, which was a usurped Emurlahn fragment), and I don't think he's actually came into contact with Omtose Phellack, other than walking through a Tellan/Omtose breach. Tellan itself, I'll concede - he walked right into the wards around the Jaghut female in HoC.