[Dolorous Menhir]

That all seems reasonable IH, except that of the potential combinations for Phaed's parentage

Rake-Envy
Golit-Envy

the only confirmed Soletaken Eleint is Rake. It's quite possible that Envy, Golit or both are not draconic, especially when you consider that Golit was also on Drift Avalii during the Edur assault, and didn't do squat.

Not convinced that the series has such a well-defined genetic base anyway, maybe you are reading too much complexity into it.

[Imperial Historian]

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It's quite possible that Envy, Golit or both are not draconic,

BUT- if either if them aren't draconic the theory that both parents are draconic = draconic offspring is blown out of the water, as both would have draconic parents by that theory.

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especially when you consider that Golit was also on Drift Avalii during the Edur assault, and didn't do squat.

Is that confirmed? do you really think the first son of the son was on the island and this wasn't remarked upon by SE? plus all the andii on the island are referred to as grandkids, the parents having gone off adventuring.

I had the impression that Golit had come in from elsewhere after the edur attack

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Not convinced that the series has such a well-defined genetic base anyway, maybe you are reading too much complexity into it.

very likely! but i'm having fun!

[Monoch Ochem]

This isn't a determinant of course but isn't Spite described as having draconean skin (her hands having scales etc.)? From what we can tell, Envy has no such visible markings or Toc would have noticed (and we al know he was paying attention!).

[Dolorous Menhir]

So where did Golit come from then? I see what you're saying, the Andii on Drift Avalii were described as Rake's grandchildren in HoC.

Since that presumably makes them Golit's kids, maybe he came by to see them once they'd escaped? There's just something weak about him though, I wouldn't count on him being a Soletaken.

[Imperial Historian]

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As for imperial historian, genetics don't work here. Being draconean would be a fenotypical trait, since it was acquired by doing the mystery thing to Tiam, not by birth. So either you pass the poison to the kids like AIDS, or you don't.

Thats a possibility true, but being soletaken could feasibly change the genetics of a person, we don't know enough about how it works... plus if its a phenotypical trait why would spite be more draconic with the scales and stuff than envy? while genetically its plausible she could have inhrited more of the draconean genetics...

[Sir Thursday]

STDs are transmitted from mother to child through breast milk right? So maybe Spite was put on the teat, but Envy wasn't.

Vox

[Dolorous Menhir]

Just had an idea - we know that the Tiste sisters are the children of Tiam and Soletaken Eleint...but do we know that Osserc and Scabby had already drank the blood of Tiam when they sired their children?

Perhaps they (Osric, Scabby) became draconic after the births - maybe it was even the births that allowed them the chance to drink from Tiam (I know, seriously unpleasant imagery, sorry). If so, then we can't consider the offspring to have two draconic parents.

Anyway, being draconic is an acquired characteristic, and in the real world would not be transmitted to children. In the same way that a rat with its tail cut off would still produce children with tails...what I'm trying to say is, Rake is more draconic than he is Andii - but wouldn't he still father Andii children rather than dragons?

Andarist - he renounced his draconean blood as a result of the undescribed tragedy. So he was draconic, and must have drunk from Tiam at some point. He didn't abstain, he gave it up later.

Did the three brothers - Rake, Ruin, Andarist - all become draconic at the same time?

[Dinivan]

Good question, I think. I don't know, but from MT i had the faint recollection that Rake was the first, and Ruin followed suit. I always imagined that Rake killed the beast and then Ruin sneakes to the corpse and gets his drinkin' for free =D

And there was something in what Alrahda Ahn (wo however he is called, the Andii/Edur halfblood friend of Trull, the spy, you-know-who ) said about the Bluerose legends about the three. Andarist was leaving Mother D last I think, but I don't remember the paragraph exactly and don't have BH near by. (I never have when I need it - murphys law applies everywhere )

[Sir Thursday]

Danyah said:

@Vox, please tell me this is STD transferring is a joke.

Well, I was just following the route of the conversation...but yeah, it was in jest. (I think that was what you wanted to hear, wasn't it?)

Vox

[Illuyankas]

Dinivan said:

Good question, I think. I don't know, but from MT i had the faint recollection that Rake was the first, and Ruin followed suit. I always imagined that Rake killed the beast and then Ruin sneakes to the corpse and gets his drinkin' for free =D

And there was something in what Alrahda Ahn (wo however he is called, the Andii/Edur halfblood friend of Trull, the spy, you-know-who ) said about the Bluerose legends about the three. Andarist was leaving Mother D last I think, but I don't remember the paragraph exactly and don't have BH near by. (I never have when I need it - murphys law applies everywhere )

Andarist left MD first, because of Scabby's machinations, then Rake left after arguing with MD about Andarist, then Ruin allied with Shadow and got interned in the Azath. Basically.

[Abyss]

On the Envy topic, i tend to agree that MoI certainly suggests she's not draconic, but it's hardly certain. Anything from the CG's poisoning of the warren's to keeping her servants handy could have affected her conduct. Don't forget, she was acting at Krul's request, and i think it was essential that she reach Pale with Baaljaag, at a minimum, with her. Tool and Mok may have been needed too, for all we know, for events to unfold the way Krul wanted them to (ie: Tool alive but out of the ritual, Mok still in thrall to Envy, Toc dead but alive and Togg/Fancypants reunited....).

- Abyss, loves a good master plan.

[Abyss]

I thought that was just 'normal' shapeshifters, not draconean ones.

- Abyss, likes draconean measures.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the madness comes with spending too much time in your Soletaken form, as Trake did. Not the actual act of veering itself, but the state of being "veered".

[Dolorous Menhir]

All the draconean Soletaken we've seen have been extraordinary individuals, Osserc, Rake, etc. I think they would have the will and force of personality to remain themselves even if they stay were in draconic form for long periods of time.

Presumably Trake, as an unascended human, lacked that strength of character and fell into a bestial existence.

And Olar Ethil is female.