[tiam]

Theres loads of soletaken around and not nearly as many pure eleint and apparently Tiam is the only one who is able to bring herself back. Neway this got me thinking off reading a post on another thread. whoever sed this post claimed that Scabby killed sorrit to drink his/her blood to become soletaken. then someoneposted would that make scabby weaker than rake and ruin as they drank tiams blood?


My theory is this. maybe all these people drinking tiams blood arent actually finding tiam and killing her therefore drinking her blood. but are merely hurting eleints and drinking there blood. and the resurection that takes place is just tiam dying then becoming alive again in another form. If tiam spawned all dragons then technically they are drinking tiams blood

[Dolorous Menhir]

So you are saying that "the blood of Tiam" could mean relatives of Tiam? That's a good point. I suppose it would only count for full-blooded Eleint, not people like Lady Envy.

edit: are all dragons descended from Tiam? she is the "Mother of Dragons"...literally?

[tiam]

yeh that could mean that she either spawned all the eleint or is the biggest or sutton. This only came to me when i thought how did Olar ethil become the exact twin of tiam. i thought it was odd as other ascendents who i consider more powerful only are half the size of tiam. i also thought well how can rake imprison 3 eleint when he himself is oly a soletaken? my theory is that whatever eleint you kill you drink its blood and become bigger and better. for example olar drank tiam on her own if you see what i mean while maybe ruin and rake only killed a dragon simialr to silanah and became soletaken that way. otherwise every one would have to find tiam and drink her blood. Also there is precednt for this. In HOC ryllandaras is a score of desert wolves whereas in DG hes only a dozen. Icarium or some claims he must have eaten sum powerful soletaken to show such capacity. also dejihm nabrahl is similar along with gryllen who fed on other soletakne and tripled his numbers form the begining of DG to the end of it.

[Abyss]

Tiam as 'mother of dragons', to my mind only meant her soletaken children, Dawn/Dusk/Dapple that we know of.

Osserce and Scabby definitely got it on with her, since they have daughters by her.

Rake is a question mark, since apparently he had at least four friends at the party (Korlat, Orfantal, et al.).

- Abyss, figures Tiam is aspected to dragons and being a big skanky ho.

[Dark Mac]

Sorrit hasn't been dead long enough for Scabby to have drunk her blood.

MT and HoC both mention that the deeper a person drinks of Tiam's blood, the more draconic they become. TBH further states that K'rul created all the Eleint other than Tiam, although he might've created Tiam as well.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

Sorrit hasn't been dead long enough for Scabby to have drunk her blood.

MT and HoC both mention that the deeper a person drinks of Tiam's blood, the more draconic they become. TBH further states that K'rul created all the Eleint other than Tiam, although he might've created Tiam as well.

Ok, I get the deeper drinking = more draconic part, but where did your other two assertions come from? I thought it was pretty clear that Sorrit had been dead for a long time, given that it was strongly implied that Scabby had killed her, and that the death was perhaps related to the Sundering of KE.

And where did it say that K'rul made the Dragons? I thought it was more of a partnership, he used them in some way to order the warrens, but he didn't expressly create them for that purpose.

And for all cases of Soletaken Eleint that I can think of, they've been described as drinking of Tiam, not some other dragon. Given that Tiam is the only dragon that resurrects, and apart from her there does not appear to be a steady supply of dead dragons to drink from (we would see the consequences in the order of the warrens), I would say the Soletaken Eleint all derive from Tiam.

[Abyss]

Sorrit's dead corpse may have been frozen along with the skykeep by Ganath - we don't know how long she's been dead.

TB states, iirc, that Krul USED the eleint to form the warrens. I don't think it said he created them.

- Abyss, wants his head frozen when he kicks.

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir said:

Ok, I get the deeper drinking = more draconic part, but where did your other two assertions come from? I thought it was pretty clear that Sorrit had been dead for a long time, given that it was strongly implied that Scabby had killed her, and that the death was perhaps related to the Sundering of KE.

Oh, I just thought that Icarium had known her at one point, and Icarium's not all that old, Malazically speaking.

Quote

And where did it say that K'rul made the Dragons? I thought it was more of a partnership, he used them in some way to order the warrens, but he didn't expressly create them for that purpose.

How else would he have aspected them? You don't force magical skills on someone; it's something that they're born with.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

Oh, I just thought that Icarium had known her at one point, and Icarium's not all that old, Malazically speaking.

Icarium...not old? Are you sure? I think the oldest timescale we have is him killing a city 100,000 years previously, and he's obviously older than that. Though you are right, the time of the Tiste Invasion in the MT prologue is presumably much earlier than that, if the KCCM were still around.

The oldest verified date we have is the Imass Ritual, at 300,000 years previously. Icarium could easily be older than this, as Gothos clearly is. Did the MT prologue take place before or after the Ritual?

edit: what I'm trying to say is, we have no idea at all how old Icarium really is. he may have lived for an indefinite amount of time before he killed the Azath and fell into his present existence.

Quote

How else would he have aspected them? You don't force magical skills on someone; it's something that they're born with.

Well, do you think Shadowthrone was born with the aspect of Shadow?

I realise it's dubious to compare an ascended human and dragons, but the idea of K'rul ordering the warrens by somehow using the dragons is clear from BH. And there is no need for "force", since it the EG's seem so close to the dragons, they presumably assented to it.

[Dark Mac]

Toblakai are offshoots of Imass, correct? And Jhag are half-Toblakai, so Icarium had to have been born after the Ritual.

MT prologue was way before the Ritual. Someone, I think it was in MoI, mentions that the KCCM were all gone by the time the Jaghut started to oppress the Imass.

I'm not sure what kind of mage Shadowthrone was. I don't remember it being mentioned in the main series. Was it in NoK? But with the Dragons, the impression I got was that they were the Warrens made flesh. I could be wrong in that, but I can't see all the dragons coming together to help K'rul make the Warrens.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dark Mac said:

Toblakai are offshoots of Imass, correct? And Jhag are half-Toblakai, so Icarium had to have been born after the Ritual.

It's not confirmed that the Jhag are half-TT, or that all Jhag are the result of Jaghut in union with a single race, rather than different races for different Jhag. The Barghast (and humans) are confirmed descendents of the Imass, but the TT have a more confused status. It appears they were contemporaries of the mortal Imass, despite not being counted among the Founding Races. The Toblakai Warren is also listed as Elder by Tool in GotM, suggesting the Toblakai are an Elder race. So Icarium need not have been born after the Tellan Ritual took place.

Dark Mac said:

I'm not sure what kind of mage Shadowthrone was. I don't remember it being mentioned in the main series. Was it in NoK?

Kellanved was Meanas/Rashan. Not sure if it's explicitly mentioned in the text, but it's pretty obvious, no? And he still is, as Shadowthrone, hence his vulnerability to Otataral.

Perhaps it is mentioned in NoK, I don't know, I haven't read it.

I just mentioned him as an example of something not being born with an aspect. It's something he acquired, as is the case of all the ascendents, and potentially the dragons too.

Dark Mac said:

But with the Dragons, the impression I got was that they were the Warrens made flesh. I could be wrong in that, but I can't see all the dragons coming together to help K'rul make the Warrens.

The Dragons are not Warrens made flesh. If this was so, the Warrens would be of equal age to the dragons - this is manifestly not true. If this was so, then death of a dragon would mean destruction of a warren. Yet with Sorrit's death Serc still exists (although Osric is still doing his part there, you get the idea). And there's no reason to think that all the dragons didn't work with K'rul. The Dragons somehow embody order in the Warrens. Just by virtue of existing they seem to keep things regular. We don't know more than that just now.

[Dark Mac]

DM:

At one point, I think it's in MoI, someone goes through all the offshoots of the Imass. Barghast, Fenn, and Toblakai are all included. The Barghast Warren is listed as an Elder Warren as well.

On Shadowthrone, if he was Meanas, then that was indeed what he was born with.

Sorrit dying caused no problems because of the duplicate protection. If the other Serc Dragon died, there might be some issues.

Hetan: It was K'rul's cleverness that gave all the dragons two aspects. They might already have had one, but the other one came from somewhere.

[dktorode]

Dolorous Menhir said:

So you are saying that "the blood of Tiam" could mean relatives of Tiam? That's a good point. I suppose it would only count for full-blooded Eleint, not people like Lady Envy.

edit: are all dragons descended from Tiam? she is the "Mother of Dragons"...literally?

I think when they say "mother" in that way, it doesnt mean they are all her descendants per say...for example Mother dark only had 3 sons..i think...and the rest of the tiste aren't ALL related to them so it must just be a name for perhaps the Eldest or the Leader of that particular race/poeple ..watever

[Dark Mac]

Hetan said:

two aspects?
Starvald demelain and whatever path they have?

Nah. Eloth mentions that she's both Mockra and Thyr. I think Sorrit was two as well, but I can't remember which too.

[Folken]

From her statement "Misteress of Illusion - to you Mockra, and Meanes and Thyr" Suggests that those three warrens are of the same aspect. Hence, Eloth is still just aspected to one warren, no matter the different flavours.

It was never stated Sorrit was both. Icarium claims her to be one of the two aspected to Serc, the other being Ossrec.

And K'Rul did not give them two aspects...he gave each ASPECT TWO dragons. That was the clever part

@Hikkie - About the Imass and Toblaki and before the ritual. Not true. We know there were Imass who couldnt make it to the ritual and hence remained Flesh and blood. Hence the different races that evolved from them, so the they could have co-existed I suppose

[Dark Mac]

Jen said:

And K'Rul did not give them two aspects...he gave each ASPECT TWO dragons. That was the clever part

Ah, I suppose that could be it. I wish I had the exact quote where K'rul was called clever though.

[Folken]

"Then again", Cottilion continued, "you too claim Thyr, Eloth. Ah, that was clever of K'rul, forcing you to share power" - page 53