[fan_83]

st has power.. but st is in control of a younger warren that is small compared to the 2 that rake command which is the oldest.. rake is certain of beating st + 5 hounds all at once. he is unsure if cotti s in the mix..
does that not say that rake is more powerful than st + 5 hounds?
korlat I believe does not know the full extent of rakes power.. cos rake has no reason to show all of his power ..
regardign the galain lord... summoning a demon is easier then defeating one.. theres the whole demon is unprepared and summoner can set trap.. compared to a full out fight..

i do not say that st is not powerful but st level of power is insufficient to take out personas of rake magnitude..

recall what baruk said to rake in gotm.. he knew about tay and he knew how much power tay possess and he is curious as to hwy rake withdraw when he could have turned tay into dust

the past tyrants that required imass to go all undead is still all powerful.. reast without his finnest can defeat 1 full blood dragon, 4 soletaken dragon, takes on qb at full blast, defeats tool and fights against paran hound before being blown up by a cusser... does that not say that reast is more powerful than most modern gods and ascendends?
recall his thoughts he could kill burn if he wants to

[Dolorous Menhir]

fan_83 said:

the past tyrants that required imass to go all undead is still all powerful.. reast without his finnest can defeat 1 full blood dragon, 4 soletaken dragon, takes on qb at full blast, defeats tool and fights against paran hound before being blown up by a cusser... does that not say that reast is more powerful than most modern gods and ascendends?
recall his thoughts he could kill burn if he wants to

Tool beat Raest. It was the flint sword through the chest that prompted him to switch to Mammot's body. They were in Kruppe's dream at the time though, so I wouldn't put much store in anything that happened there.

It was the Finnest that fought Paran-as-Hound, not Raest.

Speaking of Raest, I think we should see more of him in the books. His sarcasm is wasted on Paran, I think he should get together with Kruppe and wag chins for a while.

[Abyss]

@Daemon - cheers!

@Fan_83 - Rake was far from sure he'd win that. He said ST may win, especially if Cot was around, not 'only if'.

@Dol-Men - good point. Tool kebab'd Raest but good, but he was already pummeled by the dragons, tho he was stil going hard and making for Silanah at the time.

It took four draconic Tiste, one pureblood, and the Imass First Sword supported by a weak Elder God, a Bonecaster and Kruppe, just to ruin Raest's body (sans Finnest).

It STILL took a Hound/soletaken munching on his finnest, two High Mages and a cusser to take out his soul in a human form (albeit a High Priest of D'rek) enough for the Azath to take him. The dude was POWERFUL.

- Abyss, wonders if finnest taste like chicken.

[Mortal Sword]

OKay so I was gonna start a new thread about this, but I figured this thread applied as much as a new one.

Paran as a hound, Paran as master of the deck, Paran as an ascendant. What direction is he going as far as the hounds blood that flows through his veins.

He pretty much is mistaken for a soletaken in Poliels temple, he has in the past also assumed a "shadow form of hound" in battle. His eyes glow red... now. Assuming he has ascended or almost ascended by becomming master of the deck, and other than becomming a dragon soultaken, we havent really seen how someone becomes a soletaken in another form.

Now Paran seems pretty intune with the hounds, which... since its Shadowthrones sphere of influence, that should concern him a fair bit.

So whats up with this whole connection in the first place? Is he becomming more hound like? Is he gonna gain soultaken qualities, as far as we know... it is hinted that Quick Ben may be soultaken and it hasnt been showen yet as well...

[Werthead]

Essentially, someone becomes an Ascendant when they are mo-fo badass enough to justify it. No other quality is required. If Chuck Norris has been born in Malazworld, he'd have come out of the womb pre-Ascended.

[Nazaar]

Quote

regardign the galain lord... summoning a demon is easier then defeating one.. theres the whole demon is unprepared and summoner can set trap.. compared to a full out fight..

There's a passage in MoI I think where it says that one of the most dangerous parts of using Demons is that the mage can control Demons far more powerful than himself. It's entirely possible that the Lord Tays summons could stop Tays.

Quote

he point made more than once, usually by an Imass, is that the 'modern' gods and ascendants are powerful enough to deal with the 'ancient' Tyrants and powers that once required the Imass to go all undead to challenge.

This is brought up a few times in MoI amongst others. humans in particular have stepped up to the point where the idea of sacrificing a race to stop Tyrants is no longer necessary. No question Raest was powerful, but compare the gathering of people in GotM to say tBH. Raest wouldn't have lasted long even if he'd won that fight, there's enough people like Icarium, Brood and Karsa who would gather to kick his ass on pure principle, and the malazans going into it half-assed in GotM anyway, completely discounting the Imass.

[pippin]

Abyss said:

The point made more than once, usually by an Imass, is that the 'modern' gods and ascendants are powerful enough to deal with the 'ancient' Tyrants and powers that once required the Imass to go all undead to challenge.

Shadowthrone ascnded himself thru his own efforts, got control of a warren, including the Hounds. Rake is unsure he can beat ST with five Hounds, and/or Cotillion. Rake was also weakened by his fight with the Galayn Lord, a creature Tayshrenn STUCK IN A BOTTLE.

Point being, humans (and others, see Karsa) are hitting a point where a God or Tyrant cannot simply take over unchallenged. In the face of that development, the old powers like Elder Gods, draconic Tiste and others are not what they once were.

- Abyss, still what he once was not.

We should not really underestimate the old powers, Raest first defeated 4 soletaken dragons and a true dragon, then went on to face Kruppe, Tool (one of the most powerfull T'lan Imass (stronger than Kilava)), one of the Tiste Andii and K'rul to finally confront QB, Paran, Tool, a young Azath, Derudan and a fully armed Hedge, and all that without his full power. And a fully grown Azath can only be harmed by an enraged Icarium.

[Tiger_sword]

The old powers are indeed old but prehaps thats their problem. New powers such as ST have found different ways to power, they had to earn their power whilst the elder gods and races were gifted their powers from birth. I have no doubt that one on one a mortal human wouldn't fair too well against any of the elder races but modern ascendants are now numerous and increadibly powerful because they understand the modern world a lot more.

[fan_83]

snort: you can put all of the new ascendends and half of the new gods together in a room with a mad iccy adn you can see later who will walk out..

the old powers are powerful and they are still alive to be called old because they have learned.. the dumb ones have all died out.. give it a coupld of hundred years and you will see the same thing happen..

the dumb one will be the first to go

[tiam]

in regards to the attitude that the new gods can take out the old tyrants (raest dejihm nebrahl) is likely due to the new pantheon. there wasnt a pantheon when raest was goin about enslavin an that so that why he saw his power unchallenged

Fan 83- id say dumb wasnt a good phrase. arrogant wan*kers is tho