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So we know that the elder gods are elemental forces that exist on all the worlds.
We have :
K'rul : Who can be related to the Order.
The Crippled God : The Chaos, strangely.
Draconus : the liege of Dragon as proposed some where (http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...p?t=4857&page=3)
Edgewalker : the Shadows
Mother Dark : The Darkness.
Father Light : the Light (but here I have to say that I was believing that MD has created FL...)
Nightchill : Could be the ice, but it is concurent with T&F that are the Winter Wolfs.
Grizzin Fal : Not an idea.
Kilmandaros : Someone proposed the Earth.
Mael : the Sea.
T&F : see for Nightchill.
Sechul Lath : unkonwn.
Tiam : Menhir proprosed it, but I am not sure that it is an elder god because of the fact that there is already Draconus for the Dragons.
The Forgotten gods : Well their name is clear enough, isn't it ?
We're lacking of an elder of the : Fire, Life (if it is?), Death (if it is?), Earth ? Air ? Opposite of the Dragons.
I think here that Life and Death have to be put in those elemental forces, may be as Kilmadanros and Grizzin Fal...
Here, I must point some little things :
First, I don't really think that the Dragon can be regarded as an elemental force.
Secondly, is each force counter by an opposite (like Darkness and Light) to create a balance ?
The last thing is what happen when one of this force is destroyed ?
EDIT : completed with yours ideas.
EDIT2 : Some minor adds.
EDTI3 : Same as EDIT2. ^^
the elder gods
#2
Dolorous Menhir 
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:29 PM
Tiam, Sechul Lath?
I think there should be a fire related God, as a counter to Nightchill/Wolves of Winter. Not sure who that could be though.
Several characters seem to consider Osserc an EG too, he's often grouped with K'rul, etc. So if you accept that, and it's a big if, and his aspect is sky/air, then that would imply an ground/earth EG. Others have suggested this may be Kilmandaros' aspect.
I think there should be a fire related God, as a counter to Nightchill/Wolves of Winter. Not sure who that could be though.
Several characters seem to consider Osserc an EG too, he's often grouped with K'rul, etc. So if you accept that, and it's a big if, and his aspect is sky/air, then that would imply an ground/earth EG. Others have suggested this may be Kilmandaros' aspect.
#3
tjc52
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:40 PM
I dont rate Osric as an Elder God - I would put him more on a par with Anomander Rake, (An)Darist and Silchas Ruin. The only difference being that Osrics "acccepted the burden of godhood" for a time, unlike the other three.
#4 Guest_FrenchyFan_*
Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:12 PM
Rake never wanted it, Ruin would have accepted it if not for Bloodeye, Bloodeye hadn't have the time to accepte it...
#5
Morgoth
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:14 PM
we don't know that the cg is an elder god.. perhaps Fal is of fire
and Osric isn't listed as an elder god in the first post, is he?
and Osric isn't listed as an elder god in the first post, is he?
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#6 Guest_FrenchyFan_*
Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:30 PM
Osric isn't Orsec ? I rank him in the same way that Tjc52.
For the CG, I almost certain (but as a human I can be totally wrong) that in the discution between Cotillon and the Dragon, it is said that the CG is an elder god.
For Fal, what do we know of him ? I can't recalled anything.
For the CG, I almost certain (but as a human I can be totally wrong) that in the discution between Cotillon and the Dragon, it is said that the CG is an elder god.
For Fal, what do we know of him ? I can't recalled anything.
#7
Dinivan
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:42 PM
To throw in some ideas:
opposite to dragons I would think the beasts/ the hold of beasts. The corresponding elder god(s) are in my opinion T&F. Their title as Lord of Winter is just some title (don't know if there is a meaning behind it) but doesn't refer to an element or them being the Elder Gods of Ice. Just as Fener + Treach are called Lords of Summer but they are not connected to fire (they aren't old gods, though)
opposite to dragons I would think the beasts/ the hold of beasts. The corresponding elder god(s) are in my opinion T&F. Their title as Lord of Winter is just some title (don't know if there is a meaning behind it) but doesn't refer to an element or them being the Elder Gods of Ice. Just as Fener + Treach are called Lords of Summer but they are not connected to fire (they aren't old gods, though)
#9 Guest_FrenchyFan_*
Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:23 PM
Why not ? The Darkness, the Light, the Fire, etc... have all their equivalent in the news warrens and High Houses.
As in the High Houses their is Life and Death...
As in the High Houses their is Life and Death...
#10 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:32 PM
But any idea if there is/was an elder god related to death? As far as I remember there also was no hold of death in MT. And I don't think Hood is an elder god (see the Jaghut theory).
#11
Agraba
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:35 PM
Quote
Why not ? The Darkness, the Light, the Fire, etc... have all their equivalent in the news warrens and High Houses.
As in the High Houses their is Life and Death...
As in the High Houses their is Life and Death...
But the elemental forces were wandering the darkness even before there was life. And neither the high houses of Life, nor Death have any elder gods in it. I think the forces of life and death are just elements that mortals synthesized. I mean that, say, humans started a cult to worship "Life", and the Queen of Dreams was the leader of that cult. Then they worshipped, and sacrificed blood so much to that concept, that QoD ascended. Same would go for Hood, and the Jaghut society worshipping death. (Yes, I believe he's a Jhagut.)
#12
Folken
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:42 PM
Osserc isn't an Elder God in truth, he might be considered one in the history of the world considering his relations with the other Gods and the fact that he is worshiped as Lord of the Sky, or whatever. But he is not an Elder God
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#13
Dark Mac
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Posted 03 May 2006 - 07:18 PM
Houses are not Elder, Holds are. We don't know what most Holds are, but there should've been an original EG for each one.
I'd say that Togg and Fanderay likely represent Nature. It seems to fit with how they act, and that they're in the Beast Hold.
I'd say that Togg and Fanderay likely represent Nature. It seems to fit with how they act, and that they're in the Beast Hold.
#14 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:45 PM
EG are elementals, Holds are primitive versions of warrens and houses. As the EG come from the same place as mother dark, and T&F emerged on Wu, I think we can conclude that they are not of the same nature. I think EG are even outside of the Holds.
#15 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 04 May 2006 - 07:45 AM
I don't think holds are warrens. They are earlier versions of houses and therefore are related to warrens in a much more primitive way. EGs are outside holds and houses and they do not need warrens to use magic. Any reference of an EG relying on a hold or house?
#16 Guest_FrenchyFan_*
Posted 04 May 2006 - 07:59 AM
Dark Mac said:
Houses are not Elder, Holds are. We don't know what most Holds are, but there should've been an original EG for each one.
I'd say that Togg and Fanderay likely represent Nature. It seems to fit with how they act, and that they're in the Beast Hold.
I'd say that Togg and Fanderay likely represent Nature. It seems to fit with how they act, and that they're in the Beast Hold.
I know, what I mean is that it must be a relation between the two.
#17 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:18 PM
Somehow houses and warrens aren't strictly separated. On the contrary.
#19 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:02 PM
There's not a house for every warren. And it's not like the shadowkeep is High House Shadow. It's somehow more metaphorical.
#20 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 05 May 2006 - 06:47 AM
Dark Mac said:
Houses = Warrens
Holds = Elder Warrens
That's the connection as I see it.
Holds = Elder Warrens
That's the connection as I see it.
I don’t think the connection is that easy. Why then make a distinction?
Houses are linked somehow to warrens (but not necessarily on a 1 to 1 basis). Holds only to elder warrens because the younger warrens did not seem to exist in the time of the holds. Houses to younger and elder warrens as well. Look at High House Dark whose Knight is Rake whose warren is KG. Shadow is linked to Meanas, Rashan and Mockra and (?) KE. To make things weirder, what about HH Chains? It is definitely linked to chaos, but I don’t think chaos is a warren i.e. not created by K’rul and the Eleint. So where does chaos fit?
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