[PannionDude]

The Ceda draws on The Cedance, that is clear enough.

The impression that I got from the book is that the Cedance is the Letherii belief that destiny has Ceded, or given, the future to them. It manifests as white destructive light.

So, essentially, his warren, or source of power, seems to me to be a mass delusion. That doesn't exactly square, to my mind, with it being powerful enough to defeat Hannon Mosag while he is being backed up by the CG and the sacrifice of two people.

My pet theory is that it is the warren of, or somehow affiliated with, the Light. This fits, to my mind with the arrogance of the Tiste Liosan in HoC and with the white light flavor of Kura Qan's power. I totally buy the idea of the arrogant Letherii without any real understanding of warrens managing to tap into one.

Anyway, this has prompted me to ask two questions.

1. What do you think the Cedance is?

2. If it is, in fact, the belief of the Letherii people how can it be channeled so strongly?

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Letherii use the Empty Hold. The identity of that Hold in terms of Warrens as seen in other books is still hotly debated. It could be Death, Shadow, Light, or another.

For example, there was no one occupying the place of Death in Lether until the end of MT (except the Azath house), so that was empty, but as you point out the sorcery of the Ceda is not very reminiscent of Death. Other holds mentioned are the Dragon Hold (= Starvald Demelain), and I can't actually think of the others off the top of my head.

I think the Empty Hold was peculiar to Lether, and the sorcery used by the Ceda will turn out to be a predecessor of a style of sorcery found elsewhere on the Malazan world, such as Telas (Tayschrenn's attacks seem similar in description the Ceda's).

edit: I forgot to say, I don't think the Ceda's power had anything at all to do with the faith of Lether. That's not the way magic works in this series. The Ceda was not a god, people did not believe in him in that way. His power did not derive from belief in the imminent Seventh Closure. Which prompts another question, did the Letherii actually have gods? Can't remember.

edit: remembered another one - Ice Hold = Omtose Phellack

[PannionDude]

Thanks for the clarifications. The reason I thought the Ceda was drawing on the Letherii destiny is something that those watching him blast Hannon Mosag say/something that is said when the power is used on the Tiste Edur villages.

I think the Letherii had at least one god, the Errant.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Actually, PannionDude, I just reread that section in dealing with another question, and it does suggest that the Ceda is drawing on the faith of Lether.

It says - Brys POV - "this was the power of the Letherii, the Cedance, the voice of destiny, a thing terrible beyond comprehension -"

I would suggest that, rather than meaning the Ceda is using the faith of Lether, that he is using the Empty Hold, the power source identified with Lether. It's just a bit of poetic language.

Similarly someone might say Rake "uses the power of the Tiste Andii, Kurald Galain, the voice of darkness, a thing terrible beyond comprehension -"

[Urko Crust]

the ceda is drawing on the power of the empty hold. the cedance is the giant tiles used for divination. the cedance draws on the power of the holds in a similar but more primitive way as the deck of dragons draws on the houses.

Possible spoiler, cant remember which book it comes from:

Spoiler

the bone perch, the throne of the empty hold is exacly the same as the throne togg and fanderay sit, it even says during FW reading that the arms of the bone perch have changed into the likeness of wolves, so the empty hold becomes the beast hold becomes the house of war

[Urko Crust]

So why would the bone perch of the empty hold look exactly the same in fact change into the throne of war.
unless it was originaly the FA hold and they left it for whatever reason and it became the empty hold then the house of war.
not sure about that. wouldnt you expect the hold of the FA to have a position such as the Arbiter. do the FA use majic?

[Dolorous Menhir]

There's no known examples of the FA using magic. Bear in mind that we've only seen two living FA, and both were recently freed from long captivities. We can't gather that much from those encounters.

It's just assumed they have a racial warren, since all other non-human founding races do. (Kaschan, Omtose Phellack, Tellan, etc)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Does that rule out offensive magic AND travel magic? They might have a racial warren in the sense that they originated there, as other elder races came from their own warrens (Andii & KG, Edur & KE, the Liosan still live in KL/KT, KCCM from Kaschan, Jaghut travel in OP). The FA might also have used warren travel.

I would guess the balance principle would preclude them using magical energy waves and summonings and other battle magery we see. Doesn't necessarily rule out a racial warren entirely.

[Whelp]

IMHO the Ceda does not draw power from a single Hold, but from a combination of several ones, possibly from all known to Letherii.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Concerning the earlier questions about an FA warren, I'm rereading GotM just now and came across this statement last night. [Toc & Lorn speaking shortly after the Barghast attack that kills her Jakatakan bodyguards. Tool's first scene in the books, p 276]

====

"Well," Lorn said, "Otataral is no mystery to you of the Seven Cities, but few here know it, and I would keep it that way."

"Understood." Toc turned to regard the immobile Imass. [note - I'd forgotten that Toc & Tool briefly met here, it seems weird given how close they later became in MoI]

Lorn seemed to read his thought. "Otataral cannot quench their magic - believe me, it's been tried. The Warrens of the Imass are similar to those of the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail - Elder, blood and earthbound - that flint sword of his will never break, and it cuts through the finest iron as easily as it will flesh and bone."

====

Verified then, there exists an racial Elder Warren of the FA? Lorn seems very knowledgable in such matters, I wouldn't doubt this.

That's one of the amazing things about these books, you go back and read GotM, thinking it's the most "primitive", and you find snippets like this. Just shows how well-thought out this series really is.

[The Crazy Mob]

But Lorn might have belived that there was one for the FA but she also says the flint weapons of the T'lan Imass never break but in BH thats proven wrong.

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, I think Lorn was speaking from experience or reliable knowledge.

You see later that she has never heard of SD or other Elder warrens apart from those she named in the excerpt I quoted...which leads me to believe that she directly knew of the FA warren, rather than inferring one existed from the wealth of other Elder warrens (SD, KG, etc) - because she didn't know about those.

Just because she was wrong about the sword doesn't mean there's no FA warren. Two separate pieces of information.