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Not sure if this has been mentioned in the past, or if it's just obvious that no-one mentioned it.
Paran when he first meets Lorn (in GotM), Paran says how he hopes he could use his connections to join the Unta guard. This alarms Lorn and she then talks to his captain (who dislikes him for being a noble) and says something like: "so what do you know about the nobilities inroads on becoming an officer".
Not long later there is a nobility cull starring none other than his sister Feilisin. Then she becomes Whirlwind Goddess (DHG) and being killed by her sister Tavore (HoC).
P.S: Sorry I posted this here but there are spoilers for those who haven't read this far yet.
Is Paran responsible for Felisin's demise?
#2 Guest_Expletive Deleted_*
Posted 18 April 2006 - 02:11 PM
I suppose it's possible, in a roundabout way, but I tend to think it's a coincidence.
After all, I can't imagine the only way Laseen could've heard about the nobility-in-the-army problem was from Ganoes and that Captain by way of Lorn.
After all, I can't imagine the only way Laseen could've heard about the nobility-in-the-army problem was from Ganoes and that Captain by way of Lorn.
#3 Guest_Scorpino_*
Posted 18 April 2006 - 02:24 PM
True, I guess. The actual cull, come to think of it, does take place a couple of years later. Maybe it started an investigation into possible nobility inroads because someone as close to the Empress heard and seen the evidence firsthand?
Or it could just be one for the crazy theories thread...
Or it could just be one for the crazy theories thread...
#4
caladanbrood 
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Posted 18 April 2006 - 03:19 PM
The Cull was in Tavore's time as adjunct, not Lorn's. Then again, it must have been planned a while in advance, to get it to work properly.
It would have heppenede with or without that captain, of course - the unpopularity of the nobility was pretty evident.
It would have heppenede with or without that captain, of course - the unpopularity of the nobility was pretty evident.
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#6 Guest_Sean Eric Fagan_*
Posted 18 April 2006 - 08:08 PM
I thought it had been made clear that other culls had been done, that it was fairly traditional for the Malazan Empire (at least under Lasseen).
#7
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 18 April 2006 - 09:00 PM
I wouldn't draw so direct a line between the two.
It is a clear policy of Laseen's to target and persecute a segment of Malazan society as a way of securing her own power (the Mouse quarter mages in GotM prologue, the nobles in DG). Add to this the ineptitude of noble officers, which must have been blatantly obvious long before Paran signed up, and the hatred of the nobility as a privileged class, and they are an obvious target for Laseen to persecute.
Perhaps Lorn may have been swayed by that experience, and in turn influenced the Empress, but I think the Cull of DG was the result of social & political forces in the Empire stemming from much greater and older causes than a few comments by Paran to the Adjunct.
What I mean to say is, the Cull would have happened even if Paran had never said anything. He was not the sole, or even the major, cause.
It is a clear policy of Laseen's to target and persecute a segment of Malazan society as a way of securing her own power (the Mouse quarter mages in GotM prologue, the nobles in DG). Add to this the ineptitude of noble officers, which must have been blatantly obvious long before Paran signed up, and the hatred of the nobility as a privileged class, and they are an obvious target for Laseen to persecute.
Perhaps Lorn may have been swayed by that experience, and in turn influenced the Empress, but I think the Cull of DG was the result of social & political forces in the Empire stemming from much greater and older causes than a few comments by Paran to the Adjunct.
What I mean to say is, the Cull would have happened even if Paran had never said anything. He was not the sole, or even the major, cause.
#8
Dark Mac
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 06:38 AM
Sean Eric Fagan said:
I thought it had been made clear that other culls had been done, that it was fairly traditional for the Malazan Empire (at least under Lasseen).
It's possible, but the only one mentioned is the cull in the Navy, which presumably expanded to include the other military forces as well, at the time. The situation had since gotten worse, so Laseen had her second Cull. I think Kellenved was in charge for the first.
#9
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 19 April 2006 - 09:35 AM
There was the persecution of the mages & witches in the Mouse Quarter during the GotM prologue too, which took place during Kellanved's long absence and Laseen's defacto regency. I think it's safe to say launching that pogrom was an important step in Laseen's plan to secure the throne before Kellanved's return.
#10 Guest_Chataya_*
Posted 20 April 2006 - 11:44 AM
Scorpino said:
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the past, or if it's just obvious that no-one mentioned it.
Paran when he first meets Lorn (in GotM), Paran says how he hopes he could use his connections to join the Unta guard. This alarms Lorn and she then talks to his captain (who dislikes him for being a noble) and says something like: "so what do you know about the nobilities inroads on becoming an officer".
Not long later there is a nobility cull starring none other than his sister Feilisin. Then she becomes Whirlwind Goddess (DHG) and being killed by her sister Tavore (HoC).
P.S: Sorry I posted this here but there are spoilers for those who haven't read this far yet.
Paran when he first meets Lorn (in GotM), Paran says how he hopes he could use his connections to join the Unta guard. This alarms Lorn and she then talks to his captain (who dislikes him for being a noble) and says something like: "so what do you know about the nobilities inroads on becoming an officer".
Not long later there is a nobility cull starring none other than his sister Feilisin. Then she becomes Whirlwind Goddess (DHG) and being killed by her sister Tavore (HoC).
P.S: Sorry I posted this here but there are spoilers for those who haven't read this far yet.
Actually, I think Paran is responsible for Felisin's death in another way. Remember in GotM when Paran is near death from Sorry's assassination attempt, and at Hood's gate, he speaks with Oponn? Oponn says they will save him, but they will have to take another in his place. Someone "in [Paran's] shadow, and "a pointless death".
#11
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:00 PM
Felisin dies three whole books after that deal is struck! How could she possibly be the soul taken in exchange???
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
I think when you strike a deal with Death, and he agrees to take another soul in your place, he doesn't wait several months to take someone, he does it right there and then. He wouldn't say "hey, I'll just let you go now, and I'll just claim a family member whenever I get round to it, no biggie."
(and remember that no-one, and I mean no-one, could have known or predicted the manner of Felisin's death at the time of GotM, when she was still just a pampered Quon noble brat).
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
I think when you strike a deal with Death, and he agrees to take another soul in your place, he doesn't wait several months to take someone, he does it right there and then. He wouldn't say "hey, I'll just let you go now, and I'll just claim a family member whenever I get round to it, no biggie."
(and remember that no-one, and I mean no-one, could have known or predicted the manner of Felisin's death at the time of GotM, when she was still just a pampered Quon noble brat).
#12 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 20 April 2006 - 12:44 PM
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...74534#post74534
Here's a thread on it. Maybe they can merge.
Here's a thread on it. Maybe they can merge.
#13
caladanbrood
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Posted 20 April 2006 - 02:52 PM
Don't forget, of course, that Lorn wasn't exactly flavour of the month with Laseen before she left for Genabackis anyway...
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#14 Guest_Scorpino_*
Posted 20 April 2006 - 05:12 PM
Go on, do refresh my ailing memory. I can't really remeber why that is but it sure rings a bell... :Erm:
#15 Guest_Chataya_*
Posted 20 April 2006 - 11:30 PM
Dolorous Menhir said:
Felisin dies three whole books after that deal is struck! How could she possibly be the soul taken in exchange???
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
I think when you strike a deal with Death, and he agrees to take another soul in your place, he doesn't wait several months to take someone, he does it right there and then. He wouldn't say "hey, I'll just let you go now, and I'll just claim a family member whenever I get round to it, no biggie."
(and remember that no-one, and I mean no-one, could have known or predicted the manner of Felisin's death at the time of GotM, when she was still just a pampered Quon noble brat).
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
I think when you strike a deal with Death, and he agrees to take another soul in your place, he doesn't wait several months to take someone, he does it right there and then. He wouldn't say "hey, I'll just let you go now, and I'll just claim a family member whenever I get round to it, no biggie."
(and remember that no-one, and I mean no-one, could have known or predicted the manner of Felisin's death at the time of GotM, when she was still just a pampered Quon noble brat).
Felisin dies three whole books after the deal is struck, but all of GoTM and some of MOI take place concurrently with DG.
Paran's father dying wasn't a "pointless" death. It had been coming for a long time, and was expected. The expected isn't pointless. Also, a parent can't really be said to stand in a child's shadow - but a younger sibling sure could.
#16 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 20 April 2006 - 11:38 PM
DHG and MOI were concurrent. GotM was before both. The siege of capustan is the same moment as Heboric touching the Jade Giant. If you look at HoC, by that time an army fought it's way from Hissar to Aren, interval, new army from Aren to Raraku. From the beginning of GotM to the end of HoC you can count 8 to 12 months. Too long, too complicated.
#17 Guest_Rysto_*
Posted 01 June 2006 - 12:27 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
Felisin dies three whole books after that deal is struck! How could she possibly be the soul taken in exchange???
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
I thought it was clear it was Paran's ailing father that was taken in exchange, as he is known to have died in that interval of time.
That doesn't meet the requirements that the death be premature or meaningless. Felisin's death meets both perfectly.
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I think when you strike a deal with Death, and he agrees to take another soul in your place, he doesn't wait several months to take someone, he does it right there and then. He wouldn't say "hey, I'll just let you go now, and I'll just claim a family member whenever I get round to it, no biggie."
It was up to Oponn to provide the death, wasn't it?
Quote
(and remember that no-one, and I mean no-one, could have known or predicted the manner of Felisin's death at the time of GotM, when she was still just a pampered Quon noble brat).
Exactly. That's what make her death premature. Hood wouldn't accept the death of someone who was about to die anyway; he's already going to get that soul.
#18
Mane of Chaos
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Posted 13 June 2006 - 06:42 PM
And you think that Hood would wait such a long time to receive the soul of a relative of Paran? I personally cannot agree with this. And I most certainly wouldn't call Felisin's death pointless. I consider it very significant. On the other hand, I would say that the death of Paran's father was insignificant, at least compared to Felisin's death.
#20
Mane of Chaos
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Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:31 PM
But don't you consider the death of Paran's father pointless? Or if you do not think that it is pointless, don't you think of it as premature? I believe that Paran's father could have lived longer and it was because of the exchange that he died at the time his son was killed and this is why his death is, I think, premature.
