[amirebram]

Laseen's success was mainly due to people like Dejuk, Nok and Tryschecan, and it was Kallanvad who gathered those people. Laseen took over the empire, she didn't build it. Since comming to power she has spent all her time killing people who were loyal to the Emperor, which is why the empire was greatly weaknd.

Laseen has only looked good in hindsight. How I see it is that she always ends up making explanations for what she did. She destroyed whole armies because she wasn't sure if they were 100% loyal to her. Even Dejuk (in MOI) agreed that she made stupid mistakes when she panicked.

As we know she doesn't trust anyone; this has two effects. First is that her mistrust drives people away from her. Second is that she panics and kills people as soon as they have the slightest bit of success. And the ONLY reasaon she is so mistrustful is that she herself always backstabed people.

As a matter of fact, it is her mistrust that made her a great Mistress for covert operations like the Claw, BUT it made her unfit to be an Empress.

And as I said she always makes up explnations for her her mistakes. For example, she demotes all the loyal Old Gaurds (Wiskyjack, Stormy, Gleser, etc.) because she wanted to destroy them, then in MOI Dejuk says that Laseen knew Shadowthrone would try to hurt her, thus she wanted capable people on lower levels of command. I thought that was huge pile of B*** SH**. First we know that Laseen lies whenever it can gain her advantage. She had spent 20 years trying to supress the old guard, killed tons of people, ruined the army and all of this was purely due to her mistrust. Using the Shadowthrone plot was just an excuse used on Dejuk.

Another example of this is after the battle in Pale. All the old guard high mages are killed, and then she just says that Tryscechan had misunderestood her! How stupid is that?

[GingerBreadMan]

Well there are two popular opinions on Laseen.

1.Shes just stupid
2.She isnt stupid and is in fact quite cunning, and shes up to something.

Personally I think she is up to something, looking at everyone Dancer and Kellanved brought into their group, I dont see any as stupid. And if your around this group your going to have to be smart or your gonna get taken out considering the things that they do.

[High Marshal Flit]

Didn't Laseen or someone mention that the reasonings behind the assassinations or attempts of Kellanved and Dancer were that there is a major difference in building an empire and sustaining one, and that the emperor was unstable to say the least and the demotions of whiskeyjack and others were her attempt to keep what shadowthrone had built while establishing her own power base. And with the implied defections (MoI) and real defections (Tavore & the 14th) even she has to admit-hopefully-that she isn't up to running an empire either, what with her own power base getting wiped out (the claw) and the wickans coming back from the 7C (nil and nether) about to show her that without a loyal and veteran army she's going to have a hard time in the next 4 books. And her pogrom is her best idea for providing for the Malazan people? haven't we heard that again & again thru-out the series, the destruction of a people to sustain another, and it hasn't worked yet

[caladanbrood]

Dejuk. Teehee:D

One thing seems quite obvious, and thats that you don't create the most powerful assassin organisation in the most powerful empire in half the world, and then become the empress of that empire by being stupid. However, that was then, and this is now. Its quite obvious she has become complacent in her power, and I'm sure it won't be very long before Mallick Rel is in pretty much full control, if someone doesn't do something about him.

[GingerBreadMan]

I still think shes up to something, otherwise she would take them out herself. Rel/Dom

[innokenti]

I still maintain that Lasseen is a master of PR, but nothing more. She's not stupid per-se but she really isn't up to running an empire even if she thinks it is. Earnest in trying (who doesn't want to be Empress) but mostly failing - able to keep it up generally because she is clever with words and with appearances.

[Morgoth]

I have to disagree.. Yes Laseen has done mistakes. She fears for her power and the grip of her empire, and this fear makes her commit mistakes that damage the empire thus reducing her hold on it. A common fault among autocratic rulers all through history. However, I believe people have brought up before that blaming the wickans was a very cunning ploy if you look a bit ahead. Now, there will be famine because of the reduced state of 7 cities. The wickan plains can with their fertile soil, be the empire's salvation. If the wickans were the heroes of the nation though, Laseen could not have taken over those lands without protests from her own populace.

It's a simple if ungratefull and vicious way to solve a problem. She did miscalculate with Tavore, but who could have anticipated that some 400 claw would not be enough?

Rel is a user of Ruse, which is not an elder warren. Laseen has ample access to Otataral, so if she need to dispatch the man, dispatch him she will.. Unless it turns out that ruse is the elder warren of the sea, but I doubt that.

I'm not saying she's a genious, but she's not a moron either. I would wager she's not a born ruler, but she's trying as best she can and she's not doing too bad a job. It's not like the malazan empire would have had an easy time no matter who ruled.

[innokenti]

Oh, she is trying, I wouldn't deny that, but I don't think she is altogether that capable, that's the problem and who has she got to advise her? Does she indeed take advice? All good rulers need helpers and I don't think Dom and Rel count.

As to the Wickans, she could have asked them very nicely. Or something. She certainly does not need another war on her hands, especially against an already-conquered and willing people. Even though it is true that empires are sustained primarily by expansion, it needs to be successful outward expansion.

Big big mess, and Lasseen desperately trying to sort it out. Perhaps she is too proud to 'get help' (she asks Kalam and Tavore, but asks them to submit rather than join in)

[High Marshal Flit]

One last thing though, it was Lasseen who has put the Paran family in their positions to have the profound effect they do, who can say that she didn't foresee just a bit of the potential with, Ganoes, Tavore, & Felisin.

[innokenti]

Ah yes, Paran slinking off to rest in Darujhistan after Dujek records him dead, Tavore going against her wishes and Felisin leading the good-old Apocalypse (after being thrown to the mines by... Lasseen!). And I just really really don't see Lasseen being so far-sighted as seeing Paran in charge of Onearm's Host and Felisin leading the Apocalypse to be killed by Tavore without seeing many many other things. That's just too much for the Empress. Besides, I Ammanas and Cortillion would be much more careful with her and more attentive to what she is doing.

Seeing JUST potential in Ganoes and Tavore? Well, with Tavore being made Adjunct yes. But Ganoes was only a Captain and gone to the Bridgeburners too, admittedly make-or-break position but not the biggest vote of confidence.

EDIT: Besides, if she saw that much potential in Tavore she should trust her far more and depend on her to save her Empire, and in a way that Tavore could accept. Not something she does.

[Loof]

I think that is realy the heart of Lasseens problem, she trusts noone. So she can't seem to let anyone help to solve the problems as that would potentialy make them popular and influential and therby becomeing "threats" to her position. So she tryes to do everything herself...

EDIT: Ohh and about the asking the wickans nicely to solve the food problem wouldn't have worked as she wants to use the land for something totaly different then it is being used for now, namely grow crops as oposed to grasing land for a nomadic horsepeople. The wickans aren't very likely to agree to that me thinks...

[innokenti]

Well, I'm sure they could agree to cede some of their land. They might not be entirely happy, but it's a possibility.

Admittedly not a very valid point.

[zeeny]

That fertile land & wickans thing is the most far fetched and ridiculous excuse behide Laseen's actions I've heard so far. Probably some theory involving Martians will surface at one point or another, but untill then, this should be in the crazy theories thread.

[Wanderer]

Laseen is Laseen. She will do what she will. To me she seems mentally cracked and in need of some serious theropy. Plus with the death of onearm and his army joinging the paran fanclub as well as the bonehunters going on holiday to lether(possibly) all the main characters have vacated themselves from the empire. It's cracking from the inside out and i don't think the Empire will play such an important part as it has done in past books. There was always the illusion in past books of the empire being this massive, powerful force but now it just seems withered and weak. I think Lasseen is as good as dead and hopefully future threads will not focus on her as much and focus on the bigger conflict at hand. Now the only way i'd like to see her again is if she somehow becomes kruppe dressed as a transvestite and it was kruppe who orcestrated everything from Dancer/cot Kel/St to tehol bringing down the newly founded edur empire without doing a thing. Ahh good ol kruppe

[innokenti]

Hmm, yes, I think you're right, as I've said elsewhere it's not particularly the Malazan Empire that matters but individual and collective Malazans in case of point i.e. Tavore, Paran, their armies, etc.

I do like your special Kruppe theory. That would certainly be an interesting one to read if Erikson is thinking along those lines!

[Dolorous Menhir]

"'Aaai!' Kruppe cried, withdrawing. 'I'll not deny it, then! It's true, Murillio, Kruppe is Empress Laseen connivingly disguised.'"

[Aztiel]

I think she is just clever at being an assassin. She is too tense and nervous about who could assassinate her because that is all she knows.

[Red_orbiT]

Uncertain. She was one of the sharpest claws around. They say somewhere only cotillion was better. I think she could kill rel and dom single handedly if she wanted. She could be up to something.
Besides, while the wickan plain desicion is cold, brutal and, frankly, evil, it's not all without merit. It seems most of the food came from seven cities(can't be all desert then), there wont be any more food from there in a long time. A famine of Imperial proportions isn't something to just shrug away for an empress. The wickan plains could come in handy...
Still, she seems a cold and loveless person, not one I would like to have as an empress. BUT- I wouldn't underestimate her if I were me. Wich I am. She can still throw a surprise up I think.
And... with this writer, I don't think we have any idea what is going on yet

[innokenti]

I was just thinking... before they had conquered Seven Cities in any capacity... what was Quon Tali and surrounding lands fed on? They certainly had nothing but themselves, why can they not cope now?

Hmmm...