[tiam]

maybe elder. but it seems unlikely as surely the other EG would notice? Ok maels vanished but lether was very isolated even from the new pantheon. If all the EG were on one continent and one of them is nearby then how could they not know?

I agree that she may be but she seems moore like samar dev and feather witch. From mogoras healing we know she is old as it scares iskaral pust and likely ST (who knew she had that power!!!) shes at least 200 000 years old so maybe ardata is now i dunno the queen of dreams who changed her name to triss. Also the queen of dreams warren is driss isnt it? im sure theres a quote in BH

[Monoch Ochem]

On the subject of Ardata, I think the description of those Paralt Spiders in the Epilogue indicate that she's up to something in Kartool. Webs have been spun and they would not remain empty for long...

If she's Elder then she may need blood. An assault by the Paralt could give her the blood victims that she needs and she could then take over Kartool, making it her stronghold in the war to come...or something.

I just thought the spiders in the Epilogue were rather ominous though.

[BridgeBurner]

Monoch Ochem said:

On the subject of Ardata, I think the description of those Paralt Spiders in the Epilogue indicate that she's up to something in Kartool. Webs have been spun and they would not remain empty for long...

If she's Elder then she may need blood. An assault by the Paralt could give her the blood victims that she needs and she could then take over Kartool, making it her stronghold in the war to come...or something.

I just thought the spiders in the Epilogue were rather ominous though.

I thought the stuff about the spiders in the end was more meant to give a closure to the book, since it started with them as well.

That being said, the Paralt spiders collecting blood for Ardata is interesting... But it takes sanctified ground, right?

[tiam]

were thinking to literal again here btw. Gods dont need strongholds. Remember the quote in BH about how the war isnt about an army of acolytes against an army of acolytes or god firing at god. Its about manipulation of mortals as far as i can see.

[Mulch]

Do you think Sgt Hellian will end up as one of Ardata's? It would make her a reluctant priestess

[Gothos]

very ironic too

[BridgeBurner]

tiam said:

were thinking to literal again here btw. Gods dont need strongholds. Remember the quote in BH about how the war isnt about an army of acolytes against an army of acolytes or god firing at god. Its about manipulation of mortals as far as i can see.

True, but as the example of K'rul showed, the almost-forgotten elder gods need some blood to power up, and it needs to be spilled on ground sanctified to that god (or sanctified ground for that god that was already recently blooded, as the choosing of K'rul's temple in Capustan showed).

[tiam]

yes blood but sumone suggested that Ardata take Kartool and it becoming her stronghold. like an army gonna beseige it or sutton. Gods dont work like that. If any thing gods seem to just wanna put other gods in the mortal realm and then let mortals kill them

[Monoch Ochem]

That someone was me. Kartool being a god's stronglhold could serve a myriad of purposes and I wasn't necessarily referring to one temple's acolytes marching against the other, as Spite pointed out. Poliel had her 'stronghold' in Seven Cities and operated from that Grand Temple. An entire island is more difficult to assail than a city...it could become sanctified ground. The nature of the pantheonic war is uncertain and who knows how it will be fought. If Kartool was sanctified in Ardata's name, there's no way that anyone can argue that her power wouldn't be more potent there.

I'm not entirely sure but Ardata herself may be Elder. If she is then the spilling of blood is known to increase her power. Blood rituals and propitiations have been categorically termed 'Elder,' even as recently as TB. All I'm saying is that the spiders' widespread occurrence and the animated consciousness given to them in the Epilogue seem to hint at something more. The reference to 'webs' and 'waiting' are a clever metaphor, methinks. And in TB we discover Ardata, the spider godess, is active again....coincidence? I doubt it.

So here we are in Kartool...D'rek has murdered all her theocracy. The remaining pantheonic presences seem muted but there is a preponderance of spiders. Spiders in waiting. Either there is some feature amenable to developing arachnid intelligence in the Kartoolean water (or something), or someone with an aweful attachment to spiders is up to something.

[Dravon]

The epilogue with the spiders i believe was a metaphor...the gods have spun thier webs/plans and now its time for them to play out....i.e. SE told us the stage is set.

As for Ardata it is strongly implied that she is the EG of fate/Destiny.

[Sir Thursday]

Yeah, I suppose there wasn't really that much to say that Ardata is the god of spiders...we just assume that she is because of Mogora being a spider d'ivers. Just because Cotillion knew she was an agent of Mogora doesn't mean that he only knew because of her D'iversness.

I thought perhaps she could be the actual god of Soletaken, one who doesn't interfere very much as the Soletaken/D'ivers in DHG showed no knowledge of her existence (you would have thought she would have been mentioned if she had already occupied the post they sought to claim for themselves). That could reconcile with her being around at the time of Kallor - a mortal who used the PoH to ascend, perhaps?

Sir Thursday, formerly Vox

[Dolorous Menhir]

Dravon said:

As for Ardata it is strongly implied that she is the EG of fate/Destiny.

...where?

Togg & Fanderay are the gods of the Soletaken now. I don't see that as Ardata's role, now or in the past, she seemed more like a goddess of spiders or the like, as proposed. I thought there was more of a spider-web theme to her scene, as if she is the goddess of relationships.

edit: don't know where you pulled the path of hands connection from, Ardata was a minor ruler of some sort on Kallor's continent of Jacuruku, not Seven Cities. No reason to connect the two, except for Mogora being a D'ivers.

[Sir Thursday]

Aren't Togg and Fanderay the gods of beasts? That wouldn't necessarily include being gods of Soletaken...I may be wrong, but didn't you have to use the Path of Hands to gain ascendancy over the S/D? That would have required T&F to be there during DG, which I certainly don't recall.

Relationships is a good idea...especially given the special one that Mogora enjoys with "The Address" (My new name for him: Address ---> IP ---> Iskaral Pust, in case you didn't work that out) I would have thought that a god of relationships would get a lot of worshippers though, with people constantly praying to find true love etc., but we haven't heard of the cult of Ardata...

Sir Thursday

[Dolorous Menhir]

HoC p 366 - L'oric is addessing a meeting of the Whirlwind leadership.

"'...The pantheon was shaken yet again - by the sudden, unexpected taking of the Beast Throne by Togg and Fanderay, the mated Elder Wolves that had seemed eternally cursed to never find each other - riven apart as they were by the Fall of the Crippled God. The full effect of this reawakening of the Hold of the Beast is yet to be realized. All I would suggest, personally, is to those Soletaken and D'ivers among us: 'ware the new occupants of the Beast Throne. They may well come to you, eventually, to demand that you kneel before them.' He smiled. 'Alas, all those poor fools who followed the Path of the Hand. The game was won far, far away-'"

Makes sense really. Soletaken forms are animals, thus they come under the jurisdiction of the Beast Hold. Simple.

[Abyss]

True, but that doesn't mean individual shapeshifters may not have other allegiances. So Mogora can fully be a worshipper, servant, or full-blown House-mate of Ardata/Jhess/QoD or whomever it is she's drawing power from.

Her healing of Mappo seemed well beyond what we've seen from most shapeshifters thus far, unless they were aspected to something else, a la Rake and the draconic Andii, with their link to two elder warrens, for example, as opposed to say Gryllen, whose power was derived from his own self and devouring other beings of power.

So, if, hypothetically, Togg and Federalexpress were to show up and 'demand' Mogora's fealty, she could redirect their query to her immediate supervisor/goddess.


- Abyss, plays office politics like dodgeball.

[Sir Thursday]

I thought Mogora gained those talents because she had found the Path of Hands? That was why she was hanging around at The Address's place in the first place, wasn't it? I remember her saying something to the effect that she alone had been smart amongst the many soletaken in the area. (not sure which book, although probably DG)

Sir Thursday

[Abyss]

She found the PoH, but didn't walk it to ascendence.

She said in DG that ruling over a bunch of idiots didn't appeal to her.

- Abyss, can see her point there

[Sir Thursday]

Shadowthrone obviously didn't...

Sir Thursday

[Monoch Ochem]

OK...Cotillion called Mogora one of Ardata's; to which Mogora veers and scrambles away. Mogora is specifically referred to by Ardata as having erred in using her power to heal Mappo...an error she later mitigates when she considers the implications. Recall all those falling strands of spider-webbing and the little spiders at their ends? The same sebbing that later cucooned Mappo and left those scars? Spider-goddess magic.

The realm that Mappo found himself in had lots of clumns arranged in a spider's-web formation. Moreover, I seem to recall Ardata being called Mistress of Spiders, or some such thing....might have been Spite.

So Ardata is undoubtedly aspected to spiders. I wonder if we're confusing her with the QoD who is the goddess of divination.

As for the soletaken/diivers, I think Togg and Fanderay would be recruiting but that doesn't necessarily mean that every soletaken/diivers was so obliged. The Grey Helms and Grey Swords, Treach and his followers etc. are a mix of humans and who-knows-what-else. I just can't wait to see that Enk'aral Knight or Soldier or whatever it was, kick some a**!!!

[fan_83]

i think if they wanted to t&f can compel some obedience from those soletaken that are not already linked to toehr house/hold/gods..

they could perhaps have the power to control them in beast form and thus prevcenting those from ever veering out of beast form.. link a control that is only active hwen they are in their animal forms but not active in human forms