[Dolorous Menhir]

Just a set of observations and thoughts. I thought the book was great, though I tired of some storylines, it seems like it could've been denser. And there was no Rake or Ruin. Or Osric. Or Scabby.

1. A new House of War...though Fiddler seems unsure of the accuracy of that idea. Does this imply a new House of Peace? The Deck seems structured around balance, so unless War is an attempt to balance Chains then Peace may be on the horizon.

2. A lot of characters personalities seemed to change quite severely, and inexplicably.

Leoman changed from the heroic man-who-doubted of HoC (my opinion) to a highly unsympathetic coward and betrayer in BH. I didn't like that at all, I thought he would fight a brilliant running campaign against Tavore a la Coltaine vs Dom, not just give up and throw away his men and his cause. True, he never believed in the Whirlwind, but he must've been loyal to the Sha'iks for a reason, and this Leoman seems like a totally different person from the one who fought the Red Blades over the first Sha'ik's corpse.

Felisin Younger changed from an intelligent and introspective young girl to a fat repulsive whore in a matter of what, two POV's? Way too abrupt.

QB became much less "good", with a real edge of darkness, of potential for evil. Not sure if I like that much...he still seems to do the right thing, at least.

And of course Laseen, who, in her first appearance since DG, is revealed as an incompetent who is destroying the Empire through utter misrule. Which totally undermines the resolution of Kalam's plot in DG because the only reason he didn't kill her was because she convinced him she was a GOOD RULER.

Pearl changed from a good guy (I liked him in HoC, and even in DG) to a total tool who shot Kalam in the back. Grief over Lostara doesn't cut it.

And other examples too, no doubt. (Cuttle, suddenly becoming a liability to Fid at the start - what was up with that?)

3. The Soldier of Death. I assumed this was the Seguleh Second. But thinking further...I'm assuming most of the members of HHDeath are dead (Baudin, Talamandas are...though Dassem was not). So if the Soldier was the Second in life, then perhaps he was killed and then swore service to Hood, as was the case with Baudin.

So this means the Soldier was the Second, then he was killed (he definitely appeared to be dead, as did his horse). The Second died and became the Soldier. His killer (whoever that may be) became the new Second, Dassem, Skinner, whoever, the one that is missing (MoI). So the Soldier retains the formidable abilities of the Second, but he does not hold the position of Second in the heirarchy of living Seguleh...his killer does.

(further evidence: he carries the mask of the Second, but does not wear it. because he no longer holds the position, but once did?)

4. Curdle and Telorast: Before it was revealed they were dragons, I assumed they were once part of the circle of mages that brought down the CG. This from the comment where they say Kallor feared them. Even with Bottle's dragon comment, I'm reluctant to discard the link to the mages who brought down the CG. After all, they were being punished for SOMETHING, and bringing down the CG is definitely worthy of eternal imprisonment.

5. Edgewalker...I don't know who this is...an Elder God?

6. Poleil and Soleil - were they Forkrul Assail? The description suggests it, particularly the many-jointed limbs. Healing and disease don't seem particularly linked to FA notions of balance, but perhaps in combination they are. Now that I think of it, disease is a very efficacious way of bringing the FA's peace-that-is-death, and Poleil was much more active than Soleil.

7. Hood's request to Paran. Perhaps he was asking for Tavore's hand in marriage? Who knows.

8. Truth: I don't think he's dead. We never heard any more about the fire-sprite thing that was birthed in the inferno of Y'Ghatan. I wouldn't be surprised if Truth suddenly appeared as a some kind of fire-aspected spirit related to that.

9. What fell on Malaz City as Tavore came ashore? Legana Breed arriving from the Nascent, or something else entirely? Whatever it was, it was strange how little comment it occasioned.

10. Heboric didn't die. Something was totally fishy about the T'lan Imass attack. And that was this: NOBODY ELSE DIED. Cutter should have died, immediately after that scene I fully believed he had - people who get eviscerated generally kick the bucket long before they get medical assistance. And yet he did not. Scillara only received a minor wound. And Greyfrog came back to life (though this could be typical for whatever he is, his thoughts during the attack do not suggest he was expecting to come back to life very soon, or indeed at all).

I think some agent kept Cutter alive, brought back Greyfrog, protected Scillara and the baby, and kept Heboric's spirit alive and associated with his body. What that was, I don't know (Fener/Treach/K'rul...maybe the Eres'al, it was really getting around). When the pieces of the Jade Giant fell on the Otataral Isle, we heard Heboric musing on the final ascension of Trake, and how it required the finality of death to be complete. I think Heboric's body-death was a necessary step in his ascension to Sheild Anvil, just as the passage implies.

He'll be back.

11. The Hounds and the Deragoth. Nice to have it cleared up, the relationship between the Deragoth and Dessimbelackis. Do I have it right that the Master of the Deragoth when Dejim Nebrahl was trapped was NOT Dessimbelackis though? Any idea who that was? Also, why was Cotillion blamed for the attack on the Hounds in Poleil's temple? Surely the Hounds can tell the difference between him and Apsalar?

12. Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel???? I remember reading the passages in HoC where Dom outlined his strategy and thinking "no way, mate". Did anyone really think they would get this far?

And I really don't buy the reasoning behind the demonisation of Coltaine and the persecution of the Wickans...all that, so that people will trust Tavore and the Fourteenth?

13. What will it take for Tayschrenn to act? Is he saving his strength for something HUGE? We know he can hold his own against Rake, at least for a time, so what level of threat would it take to make him necessary? And has he been planning something with D'rek ever since he joined the Empire? What?

14. The beast Karsa fought in the Malazan compound - was it a K'Chain Che'Maille? (At first I thought it was the same place Kalam hooked up with Sinn and the surviving Ashok in DG, and that Karsa was going to meet the Toblakai with the enkar'al soul - which would've been interesting. Obviously not).

15. What is the significance of Temper, Agayla and Tays' bodyguard Kiska, who I gather are all NoK characters? Was that just a sop to NoK readers?
And was Ganath a NoK character too?

16. Poor Dujek.

17. Why is Whiskeyjack not among the dead Bridgeburners when Paran calls them from the sea of Raraku? And am I right that the dead appear in that sea because the BB's were forged there, and so return there no matter where they die? After all, Hedge died really really far away, and so did most of the rest.

18. Topper. I figure there are three options for him:

1) fell afoul of the KCCM in the Imperial Warren (which is Kaschan???)
2) assassinated by Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom as part of their subversion of the Claw (I doubt he would've joined them)
3) abandoned Laseen, as so many others have (Crust brothers, etc).

Don't know enough about his character to judge this. 1 is certainly likely, given Ganath's fate. But if the KCCM are taking back the IW, surely someone would've commented on it. I doubt the Clawmaster would be the first victim of such an attack.

19. What side is the QoD on in the war of the gods? Her past associations with Rake and Brood suggest she'll be on the "good" side, but her actions in this book do not. And Dunsparrow, she's referred to as WJ's sister but it seems they had two different mothers, and are many, many years apart in age. And is she an instrument of Hood, or something else?

20. Binadas Sengar was confirmed as the Edur sorcerer killed by Rhulad in HoC, as I understood it. Apparently he was on a mission to find a missing brother, though I am unsure whether that would be Trull or Fear. After all, Trull was in the Nascent - where Karsa found the Silanda and killed those Edur - but Binadas did not seem like the type to look for someone after they had been Shorn, too much of a traditionalist. Perhaps orders from his father would outweigh this.

Relatedly, Icarium killed all the Edur party except Veed and that one Letherii. Does this mean Preda Twilight, Hanradi Khalag (Tomad Sengar?) are all dead?

21. Koryk seems poised for greater things. As does, maybe, Masan Gilani.

22. Sha'ik, the Imass who was the heart of the Whirlwind and Onrack's ex-wife (I love that little detail) is dead. Given that it was her will motivating the Whirlwind and largely possessing Sha'ik II, and that she was (I think) independent of the CG, what forms the core power of Sha'ik III's group? Has the CG totally suborned the Whirlwind, because that would be an impressive move.

23. Will Kalam now be in a similar situation to Dassem's daughter, Rallick Nom and Vorcan, held in reserve by the Azath for some reason?

24. What did Monok Ochem try to do, surely a Bonecaster would understand he could not sit the First Throne? I didn't get that part, and Monok was one of my favourite characters, I can't really explain why. And Trull as Knight of HHS, I didn't see that coming. Does this mean Minala and Onrack have also gained positions in Shadow? I would've thought Onrack was a prime candidate for joining the House of Chains, but he seems too well-balanced for that.

That's enough for now. Thanks for reading.

[Tes'thesula]

Wow...nice work Menhir
Just some thoughts as I read through it (in no particular order)
18. I just don't think that the IW is the KCCM warren, we know that it is kallor's realm removed to a warren...i think they returned there because it was a place with many of their artifacts - they're returning home

22. It would appear that the CG has become the patron of the cult of Sha'ik, simply by way of the doctrine it promotes. There was a power vacumm when the Whirlwind goddess was destroyed, and the CG took it up, its not like Sha'ik has any powers now, she is not like Felisin senior in this respect, she is simply the centrepiece of the cult.

2. On leoman...yes, both shocking and unexpected, but it made for very good reading...I think that had leoman been given commmand of Sha'ik's forces when she was alive he would have fought the Malazan's, but her pathetic death, and the subsequent destruction of the heart of the rebellion broke him...why continue a war that he cannot win for a cause he doesn't believe in. (i don't think i expressed that very well...but imagine if leoman was commmanding the dogslayers and the desert warriors - he would have likely destroyed the 14th - now he is simply leading an inevitible defeat)

16. yeah - didn't think that would happen

well...nothing really more to add until the reread

[kettle]

Quote

2. A lot of characters personalities seemed to change quite severely, and inexplicably.

Leoman was never a loyal follower of the whirlwind, I believe he was loyal to the first Sha’ik, being her bodyguard he was sworn to protect her, but he never really trusted Sha’ik Reborn and he was never a fanatical personality, obviously there was some deal done with the QoD, maybe she told him to rid himself of the whirlwind fanatics before they could join up with the new Sha’ik and form a new army and he thought he’d take a few Mezlas with him, he did want to take Corabb with him through the gate, but it was Corabb who refused to go. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Leoman, we haven’t seen the decision making from his POV yet.

Laseen has me puzzled, as the Empress I would have thought she would have had the heads of Korbol Dom and Mallick Rel on a spike as soon as they were delivered to her in chains, how did they gain such influence? Why were they allowed to spread the false rumours about Coltaine, Duiker and the Wickans? how come Rel was able to infiltrate the claw, the Empresses own? She was obviously looking for a way out with her offer to Kalam, but I can’t understand how it has all come about. On a side note why hasn’t Mael done anything about Rel? if D’rek can kill her entire priesthood, you would think Mael would want to be rid of Rel, especially if he is working in some way with the CG

As to Pearl, well grief does strange things to people, especially if he was consumed by his own guilt at Lostara’s supposed death in Y’Ghatan while he cowered in his tent…

Quote

Relatedly, Icarium killed all the Edur party except Veed and that one Letherii. Does this mean Preda Twilight, Hanradi Khalag (Tomad Sengar?) are all dead?

Icarium only killed those Edur and Letherii who went through the gate to the first throne, Tomad Sengar etc were still on the ships...

[fan_83]

1) i doubt there will be a house of peace... to reinforce their position, they will have ot fight which contradicts their name
3) what you said is true...
4) no dragons are that dumb to call in an elder god which will destroy their realm and poison them... most probably they died a long time ago
5) as edgewalker said.. comsider him an elemental force
6) poliel and soliel are not FA.. they are blombs of beings with shape.. not many jointed..beside if they are FA, htey will be elder and will at the least evade the shard of otatarel
10) nothing is protecting them... the imass were jsut after heboric and felisin the younger... greyfrog and cutter are jsut in the way and once immobilise are no longer considered a threat
11) how can they tell? apsalar has all the memories and skills of dancer.. she even walks and carry herself the same way as dancer does... and remember ..she was moving fast.. they may tell that its not dancer by the shape and size but they still blame him cos they believe he asked aps to do it
12) coltaine and the wickans need to be demonised before dom adn rel cna be supported
13) tay has no way of standing against rake... in gotm.. they focused their attack.. rake just sprayed power... if rake focused.. tay would be nothing more than a memory...hes called an archmage for a reason
19) QOD is on the good side as you call it... but dunsparrow is linked to hood and qod and hood are allies... also the malazans are not linked to any god so hwy hsould qod help them?
20) the edur and letharii dead are those that went to drift avallii before going to the first throne... those you mention are not there as well.. or otherwise trull would have recognised his father
24) monoch could not sit on the first throne.. i believe he was seriously harmed and destroyed by the chaotic magic... especially when the portal opened.. he may have been hit by the backlash

[Keruli]

Nice list. Here are my comments.

Re: 8.
I hope Truth is dead... and stays that way.

Re: 9.
What fell on Malaz City? Was that the Jade giants that got steered away to land on Otataral Island?

Re: 12.
I thought that Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel was alive and in the process of taking over the Empire was very weakly motivated. I can't see how they could ever have pulled all that off believably.
Same with the whole Coltaine/Wickan thing. Seems the Empress was made a little too stupid there. I didn't like it.

Re: 13.
I need more info on Tayschrenn's motivations to judge that bit, but it seemed a little strange, if the Empress really is pressured by Dom and Rel. Maybe he wants to get rid of Laseen and uses Dom and Rel to get rid of them himself later on..

Re: 20.
I did get the feeling that Binadas and Trull went down in the same sweep. Something about Rhulad losing two brothers at once. Course Rhulad has many "brothers".

No, neither Tomad Sengar or the other leader was at the First Throne. It was Ahlrada Ahn that led that party. He died, but not before he got to tell Trull that he was sorry.

Re: 22.
I think Sha'ik III and her cult is what Ganoes Paran referred to when he said he was making a new card called Salvation. Paran said that at the moment the card was under the influence of the House of Chains, but that it would later break free and would be instrumental or at least important power in the fight for the world. An unaligned card and very powerful.
I don't know what powers it will have in the end, but at the moment the only two powers I can see there is the book of Dryjhna and Chaos fromt he Crippled God.

Re: 23.
Regarding those held in stasis in the Azath houses. Didn't Raest call Vorcan and Rallick Paran's servants? Or have I made that up. I got the impression that the Azath Houses was sort of the Master of the Deck's houses, and everything found inside is his to play with.

Re: 24.
Not sure what Monok Ochem was up to there. Regarding Trull's position in High House Shadow, he was been fighting for the Shadow children for a long time, and he stayed when he knew that he served Shadow's ends, so maybe that translates as him at least temporarily is found in the deck as Knight of Shadow. Minala has been a servant of Shadow for a long time so yea maybe she has a position in the House, but she is not skilled or powerful as Trull, no reason that every servant gets a position in the House. Onrack, however, fought for Trull, not Shadow.

[Dolorous Menhir]

kettle said:

Laseen has me puzzled, as the Empress I would have thought she would have had the heads of Korbol Dom and Mallick Rel on a spike as soon as they were delivered to her in chains, how did they gain such influence? Why were they allowed to spread the false rumours about Coltaine, Duiker and the Wickans? how come Rel was able to infiltrate the claw, the Empresses own? She was obviously looking for a way out with her offer to Kalam, but I can’t understand how it has all come about. On a side note why hasn’t Mael done anything about Rel? if D’rek can kill her entire priesthood, you would think Mael would want to be rid of Rel, especially if he is working in some way with the CG

I agree with your thoughts on Leoman, and share your confusion with Laseen. Why not just execute Rel and Dom as betrayers, hold up Coltaine (and if necessary, even Pormqual) as heroes felled by that betrayal, and have Tavore become the instrument of righteous Malazan vengeance in the 7Cities? That seems like a better solution, you avoid genocide of your most useful assets (the Wickan tribes) and having to welcome vipers like Mallick Rel in your midst.

As for Mael & Rel, there is a passage in the book (was it Spite and Mappo?) where it's revealed that Mael has remained ambivalent in the war between gods, favouring no one side. Remember how disinterested he was in right and wrong and the world in general in MT. Thus his followers are free to act as they will, without divine supervision, and unfortunately seem to be most unsavoury characters. (Rel and Silgar). On the other hand, D'rek absolutely picked a side...and killed his/her priests for choosing the other one.

Laseen could have had Korbolo Dom executed immediately, he was an Imperial subject guilty of treason, but perhaps Jhistal priests cannot be so easily disposed of? You might risk the wrath of their god...and though we know that Mael did bupkis for Silgar, Laseen presumably doesn't. So while Rel was waiting for trial or whatever, he managed to agitate for mercy for himself and Korbolo, and began to gather influence and spread his lies. And then it was TOO LATE.

kettle said:

Icarium only killed those Edur and Letherii who went through the gate to the first throne, Tomad Sengar etc were still on the ships...

Surely at least one of the three commanders named went along with the attacking forces? They were fighting for the First Throne, most Edur wouldn't want to miss out on that party. I think Twilight at least is dead, probably Khalag. Though now that I think about it, Tomad Sengar was with Karsa's group of ships, not Icariums, so he's probably ok. We'll need him for a future Sengar family reunion anyway, most likely.

edit: sorry, I have that hopelessly mixed up. Hanradi Khalag with Karsa, Tomad Sengar with Icarium, right?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Keruli said:

Re: 9.
What fell on Malaz City? Was that the Jade giants that got steered away to land on Otataral Island?

p 767: "sky blazed bright"

p 770: something falls, blue-grey, strikes some distance from the Malaz harbour. the Claw following Banaschar notes the impact (771). the mob is calling it a "burning Wickan head"

p 773: Keneb wonders at the strange lack of reaction to the "thunderous impact" of the "blazing fireball" from Tavore and T'amber.

That seems to be about it, I just wondered what it was. It seems a little too violent for Legana Breed arriving, and nothing else leaps to mind. Maybe it was a Jade Giant fragment, but I would assume the impact of one of those would have some kind of lasting effect, not just be quickly forgotten.

[Monoch Ochem]

Impressive indeed Dolorous....you put into words a lot of things I too felt.

My abiding hatred of Laseen in now uncontrollable. She....nay, IT is beyond redemption. No dildo is big enough for that whore so she decides to f*@k the empire! Idiot. Useless, stupid.....it needs to be destroyed and for that reason alone, I'm in support of Malik Rel and Korbolo Dom. I hope it gets the white paralt treatment and not even SE can rewrite her into my sympathy. Sacrificing Wickans.....ridiculous! If SE doesn't return Coltaine and Sormo E'nath then that may very well be his first serious flaw....

I thought the build-up and mystery behind T'Amber was a little bit of a let-down in the end.

I believe Monok Ochem was running from Icarium and one of 2 things happened: either he tried to destroy the First Throne and it destroyed him, or Icarium's power pursued him into the chamber and melted him there. I was distraught to say the least....such an unnecessary loss. That stupid half Jhag....what p@ssed him off anyway? He was fine one minute then all of a sudden the brat began keening.....*sigh*

Then there's Banaschar.....how did he fall from the competent, almost imperious mage who visited Kartool to the helpless drunk not able to fend off a single Claw...a Claw, let us remember, that Hellian was able to murder most thoroughly in her hung-over state (if she could truly not be said to have been drunk)???

Other things that I haven't got time to articulate right now combine to make this probably my least favoured novel of the series so far. It was interesting...and true, it seemed to be written with many of our 'discussions' here on the forum in mind but there wasn't too much that was 'news'.

Oh....isn't Edgewalker Scabandari Bloodeye??

[Illuyankas]

Well, I can try to answer a couple of these...

14. It was a Short-Tail Karsa killed in the keep.Talk of a 'thick stubby tail' smacking Karsa around persuaded me there.
18. I think that Rel's infiltration of the Claw was started a lot earlier than we think, and that the Black Glove got him. To be honest, although I really dislike Laseen as a pretty poor leader, the only excuse I can think of for her is that uncovering the figure behind Mallick Rel (someone new, NOT the CG) is worth sacrificing the Wickans, the 14th and herself.

Also, Dassem's daughter is truly dead, and not a servant like the others, and I'm assuming either Rake's wards are strong enough to keep WJ's spirit in the casket, or he just wants a rest, the poor guy

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ganoes said:

It's what is stopped by Paran..

It is said that it looks like someone is trying to call a god (as with the Chained One)

Really? Paran didn't appear much near the end, when did this happen? You are referring to the object falling outside Malaz City, correct? Which god, and who is doing the calling?

And Monok, I agree, I hated it when Monok & Ibra bit the dust (how appropriate, for a T'lan Imass). I reckon he tried to take the Throne and it destroyed him though, it doesn't make sense that Icarium could destroy a Bonecaster in a different room but not defeat a spear-wielding Trull right in front of him, especially when he was even deeper into his rage.

Edgewalker = Scabby??? What I can remember of his description didn't seem like an Edur, I don't think there was much to go on anyway, and I doubt Scabby would have the freedom to wander around Shadow, or be powerful enough to defy Cotillion and Ammanas.

I always thought that Scabby was the presence Andarist warns Cutter of, when he first pulls him from the waters under Drift Avalii. Andarist seemed afraid of awakening whatever that was, and it stands to reason it would be Scabby. If that's so, then he's not active anywhere.

Is EW not one of those Elementals Cotillion started talking about, perhaps one associated with Shadow, or maybe an Elder God? That seems like the answer to every "who's that?" question, oh he's some Elder God we've never heard of.

Edit: Hi, Illyunkas, just saw your answer. If it was a Short-Tail, and I'm not arguing that, it's still a KCCM, what do you think it was doing in a Malazan keep, alone?

And who is the Black Glove? Never heard that one before. Or Mallick Rel's controller, for that matter...Kallor? The Nameless Ones? It's getting a bit late to introduce whole new enemies, no?

Didn't realise Dassem's daughter was properly dead, just thought she was in Vorcan/Rallick Nom style stasis. Are you sure?

Another edit: At Red_orbit, how can Hellian be the cause of #9? She's a hilarious drunk, but it's a big stretch from that to "giant burning comet falling from the skies". She only fell into the bay from the deck of her ship, not the heavens.

[Red_orbiT]

@9: I thought it was Hellian...
The Hellian-Banashar thing in malaz city was great fun.
All the weary soldiers trying to get back to the ship, dead people everywhere, and then Hellian and Banashar comes stumbling out from a tavern, dead drunk:
"Where's the boat?"
"Fiddler you look awful!"
I almost laughet myself asunder.

[Illuyankas]

The KCN in the keep was another example of a story-relevant Elder person being dug up and causing havoc, like Serenity, there I guess to show the KCNs are back in the story.

The Black Glove is the name of Rel's organisation within the Claw, the one folloing Banaschar was one - it's described in his POV. And in Kalam's struggle over going in and killing Rel and Dom, and saving Tavore, he thinks about how maybe Laseen hasn't killed Rel yet (Dom isn't a threat) because of the threat the as yet unknown figure behind him possesses, and how they have to discover that before safely killing him.

Also, there were several sentences where Hood was described as taking Dassem's daughter's soul, so unless he gives it back, she's dead. And I doubt he will.

[Murrin]

Quote

10. Heboric didn't die. [...]

I think some agent [...] kept Heboric's spirit alive and associated with his body. [...] When the pieces of the Jade Giant fell on the Otataral Isle, we heard Heboric musing on the final ascension of Trake, and how it required the finality of death to be complete. I think Heboric's body-death was a necessary step in his ascension to Sheild Anvil, just as the passage implies.

He'll be back.

I disagree. It seemed more likely that Heboric's return near the end was at the hands of Hood, allowing him to come back because he perceived the service he could perform for the souls searching for the CG. He was dead, but the reappearence of the green glow from his hands signified his returning just for this one final task. A task he may indeed have needed to die to be able to perform, but I doubt his spirit remains after this.

[Tes'thesula]

This seemed the best thread to put this in: What's with Hedge's comments after Paran leaves him in the Nascent? Does it mean that he is not going to serve the purpose the Paran thought he would? I'm not certain whether his comments meant a betrayel or not

[tjc52]

I reckon that Heboric is dead - properly dead, for good - and that somehow his role as Shield Anvil has passed to Stormy - Legana Breed referred to him as Shield Anvil - and that this is probably something to do with the weird bit on the Silanda where something passes from Heboric to Stormy when Stormy gets healed.

[fan_83]

it means that hedge don;t want to play no more.. he wants to rest... and have fun...
but i think he will change his mind when circumstances changes... or when fidd ask for help

[polishgenius]

I'm curious about the Hedge thing too. A dead bridgeburner sapper running around? Chaos!

I thought the edge of darkness to QB was always there (after MoI I was asking myself if he's really playing for the empire or just helping it for his own ends), it was just made more explicit. And it seems his sister forgave him...
It was interesting to see him being played by Shadowthrone, too - he's not infallible after all.
And I liked the Icarium confrontation at the end. Showed he has a fair bit of power but not overwhelming.

The thing about Truth: look at Gessler's dream under Y'Gattan. Can't remember it exactly, and there's a question over who's in the flame (I thought it was Truth but it might be Gessler) but that seems a strong hint.

Whiskeyjack - I think the real reason he wasn't there is that he's far too influential to have him running around in this story. But: perhaps it had something to do with the fact that he was temporarily Mason of Death in Gardens? Or the fact that (I reckon) those peeps (who's name I cannae remember) that Karsa comes across almost worship him as the Iron Prophet? That's unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in.

[Monoch Ochem]

See, there's the House of War in addition to the one that Togg and Fanderay now occupy right? So there's Togg & Fanderay, Treach and somewhere-out-there Fener. Could be as many as 3 sets of Shield Anvil, Destriant and Mortal Sword.

I'm not sure that Heboric is dead but this is probably exactly the sort of humming and hawing that his obscure story was meant to precipitate. First there was Grub's cryptic remark about having to lose everything to get something else...and then Heboric's musings on his resurrection and Treach's death by analogy. I wonder if Chaur actually died and it's now Heboric's soul who occupies his body....or if both souls are now in there.

It's deliberately obscure.