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I read here that SE was trying to get him into all the books, but couldn't manage it with HOC or MT, to demonstrate the rise of one random soldier - or something. It's pretty vague in my mind why, but he should be in charge - he goes from a recruiter to a Fist/Ambassador in two books. And he rocks, as I'm sure Abyss will agree with me once he gets TBH eventually (mwahahaha).
Future of the Malazans....
#21
Illuyankas 
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 02:32 AM
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#22
Abyss
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Posted 03 April 2006 - 06:14 PM
Illuyankas said:
... as I'm sure Abyss will agree with me once he gets TBH eventually (mwahahaha).
Illy', haven't i told you to just die?
- Abyss, not quite finished the book yet.
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#23 Guest_bonedog_*
Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:34 AM
Kilor,
Your post is about as far off as you can get concerning the malazan empire. It was pretty clear in TBH that Laseen lost both of her armies to the Paran family. Tavore is sailing to a distant land to fight the last battle, and it seems clear that Paran is marching to Aren to either hitch a ride with his sister or get a ride from someone we have not see yet. The fate of the empire is up in the air, but I can say that the Paran's have some bigger battles to fight...and neither expect to ever set foot in Malaz territory again.
Your post is about as far off as you can get concerning the malazan empire. It was pretty clear in TBH that Laseen lost both of her armies to the Paran family. Tavore is sailing to a distant land to fight the last battle, and it seems clear that Paran is marching to Aren to either hitch a ride with his sister or get a ride from someone we have not see yet. The fate of the empire is up in the air, but I can say that the Paran's have some bigger battles to fight...and neither expect to ever set foot in Malaz territory again.
#24 Guest_Hikkie_*
Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:36 PM
bonedog said:
Kilor,
Your post is about as far off as you can get concerning the malazan empire. It was pretty clear in TBH that Laseen lost both of her armies to the Paran family. Tavore is sailing to a distant land to fight the last battle, and it seems clear that Paran is marching to Aren to either hitch a ride with his sister or get a ride from someone we have not see yet. The fate of the empire is up in the air, but I can say that the Paran's have some bigger battles to fight...and neither expect to ever set foot in Malaz territory again.
Your post is about as far off as you can get concerning the malazan empire. It was pretty clear in TBH that Laseen lost both of her armies to the Paran family. Tavore is sailing to a distant land to fight the last battle, and it seems clear that Paran is marching to Aren to either hitch a ride with his sister or get a ride from someone we have not see yet. The fate of the empire is up in the air, but I can say that the Paran's have some bigger battles to fight...and neither expect to ever set foot in Malaz territory again.
uhm Ganoes was planning on going to go to Quon Tali when he met Apsalar after dealing with some stuff in 7 cities. This might have changed, but probably more as in delayed if it is the case. And the Wickans are on Quon Tali, so it might be that Ganoes is planning to stop the Wickan bloodshed. Anyway it is clear that Ganoes is expecting to set foot on Malaz territory again sometime.
and Killor said that Laseen has lost her two big armies, so your post just confirms what he had said?
Besides that armies can be replaced and Laseen still has town/city garrisons.
#25
Abyss
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 02:35 PM
Mutiple points...
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
- the Claw is NOT finished. It is, however, severely lessened, and divided by Rel's maniulations. The POV of the Claw sent after Banachar shows us that there were dissatisfied people in the cult waiting for a Rel to come along and subvert them. And we know from DG that Rel is VERY good at subversion, sorcerous or otherwise. But the ghost of the Claw Pearl killed also showed there is some honour in the Claw.
- Laseen is clearly at risk. Dom taking on the title of First Sword and other elements shows he's trying to increase his own power. And she, unfortunately, needs him to perpetuate the wickan plan. But she's not an idiot either. She'll make her own plans. Find her own allies. Dom and Rel were isolating Tayshrenn because they know she'll need his help. But Tays was clearly not ignorant of this. And Laseen has other armies besides the 14th and the Host.
The game is NOT over for Laseen, or the Empire. She may not be in charge before it's done. Several people might take charge, but it ain't over til the mage-assassin lady sings. And then Aragan will lead a military coup and take over. HAIL ARAGAN!!!!!!
- Abyss, Aragan's biggest fan.
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
- the Claw is NOT finished. It is, however, severely lessened, and divided by Rel's maniulations. The POV of the Claw sent after Banachar shows us that there were dissatisfied people in the cult waiting for a Rel to come along and subvert them. And we know from DG that Rel is VERY good at subversion, sorcerous or otherwise. But the ghost of the Claw Pearl killed also showed there is some honour in the Claw.
- Laseen is clearly at risk. Dom taking on the title of First Sword and other elements shows he's trying to increase his own power. And she, unfortunately, needs him to perpetuate the wickan plan. But she's not an idiot either. She'll make her own plans. Find her own allies. Dom and Rel were isolating Tayshrenn because they know she'll need his help. But Tays was clearly not ignorant of this. And Laseen has other armies besides the 14th and the Host.
The game is NOT over for Laseen, or the Empire. She may not be in charge before it's done. Several people might take charge, but it ain't over til the mage-assassin lady sings. And then Aragan will lead a military coup and take over. HAIL ARAGAN!!!!!!
- Abyss, Aragan's biggest fan.
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#26
graller
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 02:40 PM
I don't buy this at all. 7C is a desert, how was it feeding any other part of the empire? Secondly all the people in 7C are dead, that is a heck lot less people to feed for the empire as well. Laseen is an idiot, she let those two manuever her into a corner and she does not have a plan that gets her back mage cadres or armies. Her Claws are in ruins as well. Sorry...the "middle empire" era is drawing to a close and not a moment too soon.
Abyss said:
Mutiple points...
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
The game is NOT over for Laseen, or the Empire. She may not be in charge before it's done. Several people might take charge, but it ain't over til the mage-assassin lady sings. And then Aragan will lead a military coup and take over. HAIL ARAGAN!!!!!!
- Abyss, Aragan's biggest fan.
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
The game is NOT over for Laseen, or the Empire. She may not be in charge before it's done. Several people might take charge, but it ain't over til the mage-assassin lady sings. And then Aragan will lead a military coup and take over. HAIL ARAGAN!!!!!!
- Abyss, Aragan's biggest fan.
#27
lfex
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:15 PM
Well, Egypt is also mostly a desert, and still the country was feeding Roman Empire. I think Erikson uses historical analogy here.
I agree with Aragan as emperor. His cameo appearances are very sugestive
I agree with Aragan as emperor. His cameo appearances are very sugestive
#28
tiam
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:37 PM
maybe at the end of the series with grub as first sword and aragan as emporer with a headache:D. As for the scapegoats. history has alot of scapegoats. the jews in germany during the 30s are a good example. anythng can be blamed on them and it takes pressure of laseen due to her abondonment of coltaine. this would mean awkward situations for lasseen.
Also how many claw are there. it seems that almost every city had a Hand so maybe theres around 400 left maybe 200 loyal to laseen.
IMO shes f**ked
Also how many claw are there. it seems that almost every city had a Hand so maybe theres around 400 left maybe 200 loyal to laseen.
IMO shes f**ked
#29
Abyss
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 04:55 PM
lfex said:
Well, Egypt is also mostly a desert, and still the country was feeding Roman Empire.
Exactly
lfex said:
I agree with Aragan as emperor. His cameo appearances are very suggestive
Yes, but it doesn't go quite far enough...
Aragan advances with each book, hence...
TB - Fist
RG - High Fist
TtH - Emperor
DoD - Ascendant
CG - ALMIGHTY AND ALL POWERFUL GREATEST GOD OVER ALL EXISTANCE!!!! With a headache.
- Abyss, admit it, it makes sense.
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#30 Guest_Hikkie_*
Posted 26 April 2006 - 05:54 PM
Abyss said:
Mutiple points...
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
- Laseen is NOT an idiot. She is, however, cuaght by circumstances and shortsitedness. With the complete loss of 7C, the Empire needs food. Hence, they need the Wickan plains. So by making the Wickans the scapegoat for losing 7C, she removes the Coltaine legend (like she did Dassem) which might have cast a bad light on her from the minds of the people, gives the people a scapegoat to blame for anything that goes wrong, and a target that gets her what she wants - a food source. It's her willingness to play to people's lowest mentalities that curses her, not incompetence.
But she could have demanded an evacuation of the wickan to help with the coming starvation or ask neighbouring countries for help (allthough with Malazan's aggressive attitude I doubt they have any friendly neighbours). Atleast it seems that she has no hesitance to do this and possibly hasnt even tried any alternatives.
#31
Abyss
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:14 PM
If Laseen was all cuddly and nice, she would not have seized the Empire from Kellanved in the first place. 
And she's not overlooking that by giving the Empire's masses a convenient target - the Wickans - they will forgive/overlook her failings in 7C, Korel, and Genabackis. And while Darujhistan's been referred to as the only jewel on the continent, they did manage to conquer every other Free City north of there.
Since it was under the Empire's (hidden) authority that Dujek treated with Brood, Rake and Darujhistan, and then the Andii in Black Coral, AND stopped the Pannion Domin, it's not a complete failure.
Anyone's guess how those things will change tho'.
The army sent to the Wickan plains were described as 'a rabble', but ten thousand strong, so Laseen isn't completely without resources at the moment. Albeit not trustworthy.
But yeah, ultimately i think she's going down. I just think it's an oversight of some of the writing to say the character is a moron and has no idea what she's doing.
- Abyss, literary apologist.
And she's not overlooking that by giving the Empire's masses a convenient target - the Wickans - they will forgive/overlook her failings in 7C, Korel, and Genabackis. And while Darujhistan's been referred to as the only jewel on the continent, they did manage to conquer every other Free City north of there.
Since it was under the Empire's (hidden) authority that Dujek treated with Brood, Rake and Darujhistan, and then the Andii in Black Coral, AND stopped the Pannion Domin, it's not a complete failure.
Anyone's guess how those things will change tho'.
The army sent to the Wickan plains were described as 'a rabble', but ten thousand strong, so Laseen isn't completely without resources at the moment. Albeit not trustworthy.
But yeah, ultimately i think she's going down. I just think it's an oversight of some of the writing to say the character is a moron and has no idea what she's doing.
- Abyss, literary apologist.
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#32 Guest_Hikkie_*
Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:20 PM
Abyss said:
If Laseen was all cuddly and nice, she would not have seized the Empire from Kellanved in the first place.
And she's not overlooking that by giving the Empire's masses a convenient target - the Wickans - they will forgive/overlook her failings in 7C, Korel, and Genabackis. And while Darujhistan's been referred to as the only jewel on the continent, they did manage to conquer every other Free City north of there.
Since it was under the Empire's (hidden) authority that Dujek treated with Brood, Rake and Darujhistan, and then the Andii in Black Coral, AND stopped the Pannion Domin, it's not a complete failure.
Anyone's guess how those things will change tho'.
The army sent to the Wickan plains were described as 'a rabble', but ten thousand strong, so Laseen isn't completely without resources at the moment. Albeit not trustworthy.
But yeah, ultimately i think she's going down. I just think it's an oversight of some of the writing to say the character is a moron and has no idea what she's doing.
- Abyss, literary apologist.
And she's not overlooking that by giving the Empire's masses a convenient target - the Wickans - they will forgive/overlook her failings in 7C, Korel, and Genabackis. And while Darujhistan's been referred to as the only jewel on the continent, they did manage to conquer every other Free City north of there.
Since it was under the Empire's (hidden) authority that Dujek treated with Brood, Rake and Darujhistan, and then the Andii in Black Coral, AND stopped the Pannion Domin, it's not a complete failure.
Anyone's guess how those things will change tho'.
The army sent to the Wickan plains were described as 'a rabble', but ten thousand strong, so Laseen isn't completely without resources at the moment. Albeit not trustworthy.
But yeah, ultimately i think she's going down. I just think it's an oversight of some of the writing to say the character is a moron and has no idea what she's doing.
- Abyss, literary apologist.
The campaigns (genebackis and 7cities) were neither actual failures, but with that line I was more thinking from how the mob would see it. Ten of thousands of soldiers dead on genebackis with no rich prize and I wonder how much people know about the pannion domion. So yes I agree that the wickans is a move to distract the mob from jumping at her throat, but as I said I think there may have been less bloody and manipulative ways to have achieved that.
Off course with no real knowledge of the common mans knowledge and how much grip Laseen(and how much Mallick rel had influenced it before he became a guest in mock's hold) has on their information flow I cant really judge her.
#33 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:47 PM
Well; it's a subtle game. Rel can't seize the throne, neither can Dom for the moment. Too early, the mob wll revolt and kill them. Give it a while and they will follow. Laseen can't do anything, her organisation is usurped, she's not powerfull enough and Tay keeps in the background. She has to give the Wickans to the Mob. Rel has already won that move. It's basic chess, don't react, because you will always be a step behind. Act, and cut off the opponent. She subtly hoped either Kalam or Pearl would take out Rel, at which point order could be restored.
Food shortage is an excuse, don't tell me an isolated island relies for fresh food on a continent weeks away by boat? No, it's a power-chess game IMO.
Food shortage is an excuse, don't tell me an isolated island relies for fresh food on a continent weeks away by boat? No, it's a power-chess game IMO.
#34
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 26 April 2006 - 10:55 PM
I think Laseen's first concern as a ruler is perpetuating her own rule, not the welfare of the Empire. And that's why the Empire has come to such harm under her. The Emperor was capable of expanding the Empire, taking it into new territories, making it stronger. I don't think Laseen can do so, it's like she's playing just hold what she has, and so inevitable losing it.
#35
Asandir
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Posted 27 April 2006 - 08:39 AM
Laseen was from the Napan royal line and look what happened to them even before Kellanved began world domination.
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#36 Guest_Ronin_*
Posted 04 May 2006 - 06:45 AM
Larseen's biggest problem is seeing all those who works for her as disposable tools, and now she has none left. There lies the biggest difference between her and Kellanved. The Emperor does not betray his own.
#37
JAGHUT JIM
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:06 AM
In the longer point of view, i think the wickan plains as a food source is week. Its the wickans that the jhistal wants out of the way. They are kellanveds favorites which shows just how formidable they are. They can be another thorn in the CG's side who is imo who the jhistal is really workin for. Without the major power (wickans) on Quon Tali the subcontinent is easy pickings for the edur.
#38
Morgoth
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:39 AM
JAGHUT JIM said:
CG's side who is imo who the jhistal is really workin for. Without the major power (wickans) on Quon Tali the subcontinent is easy pickings for the edur.
How do we know this? I might have missed something, but how do you know the Jhistal is working for the CG. Do you have any proof to back this up?
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#39
Hume
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:04 AM
Because in Gotm he was a Recruiting Sergeant.
in DG I think he got skipped not sure though.
In MoI he was a an embassador to the Allied forces of the Malazans that arrived on one of those three ships at the end.
In HoC he does turn up somewhere im sure But i've forgotten right now.
I think he is skipped in MT as well.
Im 100% that Aragan in the Bonehunters is the Fist of Malaz City.
So there is a bit of a theme to his appearances as well.
in DG I think he got skipped not sure though.
In MoI he was a an embassador to the Allied forces of the Malazans that arrived on one of those three ships at the end.
In HoC he does turn up somewhere im sure But i've forgotten right now.
I think he is skipped in MT as well.
Im 100% that Aragan in the Bonehunters is the Fist of Malaz City.
So there is a bit of a theme to his appearances as well.
#40
JAGHUT JIM
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 10:38 AM
How do we know this? I might have missed something, but how do you know the Jhistal is working for the CG. Do you have any proof to back this up?
No proof as yet. Just a feeling that there is much more to this cunning jhistal than what has so far been revealed. I can see a pattern forming where allies of the crippled god are trying to weaken their foes internally. This just looks like another ploy to remove enemies of the cg. The real powers in the empire (wickans and other tribes) are being possibly negated with no actual benefit to the empire. I believe laseen to be too smart not to realise that even using the wickans as a scapegoat really doesn't help in anyway. She might keep the masses happy with these lies if thats the case but its not the common masses that make up the physical power in the central empire is it.
No proof as yet. Just a feeling that there is much more to this cunning jhistal than what has so far been revealed. I can see a pattern forming where allies of the crippled god are trying to weaken their foes internally. This just looks like another ploy to remove enemies of the cg. The real powers in the empire (wickans and other tribes) are being possibly negated with no actual benefit to the empire. I believe laseen to be too smart not to realise that even using the wickans as a scapegoat really doesn't help in anyway. She might keep the masses happy with these lies if thats the case but its not the common masses that make up the physical power in the central empire is it.
