[Imperial Historian]

Ok, we know from SE's explaination that many warrens are diluted versions of others, and that teh warrens are generally interrelated...

Anyway malaclypse and I have managed to piece together what we think is a fairly good diagram of the warren relationships, and how they inter-relate.

I thought i'd post it here to see what you think, opinions welcomed.

Note: I know aral gamelon isn't there, can't think where it would fit

Warren Relationship Diagram

[Set'alahd Crool]

The first thing I noticed was Kg should link to KT. Wasn't light born when MD allowed chaos to catch up?

[Illuyankas]

Looks cool to me, and I'd say you'd need a box with arrows leading from Chaos and Hood's Warren to Aral Gamelon, which would be a bit messy. You might have a box coming from Order for the Empty Hold, but I doubt that's necessary. Good job!

[Oceao]

Why is there an order box?

I envisioned more of an island of interconnected/overlapping warrens resting on chaos, although I am only on my second read through (currently at MoI) so may be forgetting a lot.

[Trotts]

a lot of these links are discussion points

one thing id like to mention (not demand a correction to, merely suggest) thyrlan should be linked to serc. serc, the path of the sky, is, i believe, linked to osserc, who is clearly linked to kt.

[tiam]

Yes serc should be linked to osserc. how i ruse linked to KG. i prefer skawns version of the warren (sorry trotts) as it seems to ahve more relevance and shows the gods such as burn and mael have theiir own warren

[Imperial Historian]

Ok explainations for some of my linkages...

Hood's Warren is linked to omptose phellack as:
1. The lack of a child warren for omptose phellack alone of all the elder warrens woudl be suprising
2. The repeated references which suggest that hood is a jaghut
3. The fact that hood's realm is repeatedly described as a cold "hoary" (ie icy) realm
4. The general pleasing symmetry of the fact that life is fire so death is ice

Ruse linked to Kurald Galain:
1. We've not heard of an elder warren of the sea as of yet
2.References in MT refering to the sea as a "dark" realm, and references from edur suggesting it is the andii realm.
Not particularly strong but i wanted to link it to something

Denul stemming from the beast hold, mainly because we don't know much about it save that it is life aspected, a healing warren, so it owuld make sense for it to stem from a hold which is the root of all life, and to fit it in somewhere.

I'd agree the Serc should probably span from KT, the osserc link if basically all we have about that warren, but seeing as that was a very tenuous link in my mind I didn't link it.

The thelomen warren is basically earth aspected as are all the thelomen, so it woudl make sense for it to come from "earth magic" which is notbaly bsent from the system of holds in MT... it may in fact be linked to the azath, as the terminology of that hold seems fairly earth based

Burns warren is basically Tennes in my opinion, being a realitively young god.

Earth Magic covers all the magic of the land such as the wickan magic.

I quite like Skawn's house based version of the warren system, mines more based on the hold system from MT, with a gradual dilution from hold to warren.

Some points on his system:

Tellan is definitly a child of KT, as referenced several times in the books.

Aral Gamelon itself is not based from Hood's warren at all in my opinion, the magic of demon summoning involves the use of death magic to keep the demons in check, but teh actual warren they come frm can be from elsewhere in my opinion. The warrens we have seen so far which contain demons have all been children of the kuralds....

Linking the Kuralds to SD I don't agree with, the soletaken tiste is due to the fact that the powerful tiste drew upon the warren of SD to have more power (It being teh other major elder warren) not due to any generic link to SD in my opinion.

[Abyss]

The main problem i have with this is that Houses/Holds and Warrens are used interchangeably.

They are not the same thing.

For lack of a better analogy, a House/Hold is an alliance. A Warren is a natural resource.


- Abyss, thinks Warren Zevon was an unnatural resource.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

The main problem i have with this is that Houses/Holds and Warrens are used interchangeably.

They are not the same thing.

For lack of a better analogy, a House/Hold is an alliance. A Warren is a natural resource

I'm not sure that that is the case....

We know from Corlo that magic in letheras is in the form of holds, and not the more refined warrens, and exploration of the early warrens must be based on the assumption that they were warrens in early times.

Houses themselves are generally linked very strongly to another warren, and maybe more than one, which the structure of the house occupies, in that way warrens/houses can be used interchangably, but not as much as holds/warrens can be interchangable as a hold is merely a primitive version of a warren.

[Monoch Ochem]

Imperial Historian said:

Linking the Kuralds to SD I don't agree with, the soletaken tiste is due to the fact that the powerful tiste drew upon the warren of SD to have more power (It being teh other major elder warren) not due to any generic link to SD in my opinion.

OK, I'm with you up until that point IH. I agree with not linking the Kuralds to SD. As far as the powerful Tiste drawing upon SD...don't quite understand you. You make it sound as if they drew upon it because they were powerful. Well they are powerful without a doubt but I thought they were only able to draw on SD because they became draconean (and hence powerful/more powerful). Isn't SD the Tiam Warren or something? So 'drinking her blood' opens the way to wielding SD....I thought.

Also IH, why isn't there a link between KE and Meanas? Also I def. agree with your view of AG and Hood's warren.

@ Skawn, can't read the diagram I'm afraid. Shame...I really would have liked to see your take on the chart.

[Tiger_sword]

Aral Gamelon is very close to Hood's warren as said by QB in MoI. Obviously as has been said it makes sense for demons to be close to death but the actual warrens themselves are linked as we saw in MoI

[Imperial Historian]

Err... there is a link between KE and meanas... admitedly its sandwidched between the links from KG and KT so its not as visible as some of the others but its there.

Ok the point with the tiste who drew on SD was this:
Members of the tiste race became powerful up to a certain point, but wielding one warren you can only become so powerful, so they turned ot and drew upon the only other warren which was as powerful/more powerful than theres SD and to gain this power they drank of Tiams blood etc

They did not become able to draw on SD due to an generic linkage between the kuralds and demelain, it was more bjust seeking to become more powerful... or thats what I meant anyway, sorry if it wasn't very clear.

[Malaclypse]

ok, just bear with me for a minute or two...

let's say Chaos is first, that shouldn't be too much of a stretch...

so let's also say that Starvald Demelain is the First Warren, as described in numerous Glossaries of the published books

and all other warrens derive from SD, the Elder Warrens all corresponding to an Elder Race, ie. the Holds...remember that the Holds as represented in the Glossary in MT are incomplete... as per the Ceda's comments if it's not obvious

KG-Andii
KT-Liosan---Tellann
KE-Edur
OP- Jaghut
Kaschan-KCM, KCN(?)
Aral Gamelon(?)
etc...

and the younger warrens all derive from the Elder Warrens.

this really only has to do with the top of the tree, I don't have any major problems with IH's interpretation of the middle/bottom portion of the scheme on the 27th this conversation will get much more interesting

[vaiski]

Tempest said:

i reckon the only reason that it's linked to osric is that he was probably the most ostentatious of the dragonfolk and spent more time flying around the malazan realm getting seen or getting in rakes way?

Glossary says:
Serc= The Path of the Sky
Osserc= Lord of the Sky