[Mentalist]

I'm yet to read Shogun. It is also sitting on my shelf, waiting its turn.

[worry]

Finished Grey Sister. This series is surprisingly slow burn in comparison to the Broken Empire books. I find myself reading them slower. I like it plenty regardless though. Neat to see a fantasy author create such starkly different worlds.

Now reading On A Sunbeam, a graphic novel by Tillie Walden. I guess it was a webcomic first, but the paperback is really nice lookin.

[Abyss]

Mentalist, on 16 September 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'm yet to read Shogun. It is also sitting on my shelf, waiting its turn.

BfuckinK, on 16 September 2019 - 08:42 PM, said:

Do it asap. One of the greatest books ever is just sitting on your shelf then. 1,000 pgs of epic ness.

Honor demands it!!!

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 19 August 2019 - 01:57 AM, said:

Been reading a few short stories on the Humanity, Fuck Yeah! subreddit today. They're each like 10-minute reads. In particular, I really enjoyed We Knew Them.


Taking a peek into Le Guin's Hainish Novels & Stories: Vol 1, the first of two omnibuses by The Library Of America. Quite pretty (though the pages are thinner than paper). Vol 1 contains:
Rocannon's World
Planet Of Exile
City Of Illusions
The Left Hand Of Darkness (I've read this before, but may re-read)
The Dispossessed
Various Stories (Winter's King, Vaster Than Empires And More Slow, The Day Before The Revolution, and Coming Of Age In Karhide)

Rocannon's World — A fun travelogue, but that's about it.
Planet Of Exile — Intriguing worldbuildng and a nice siege.
City Of Illusions — Very good mindbending exploration of the nature of self, truth, and reality. Plus, a very enjoyable travelogue.
The Left Hand Of Darkness — Even better than I remembered. The journey across the ice is magnificently austere yet affecting. As Genly writes,

Quote

Sometimes as I am falling asleep in a dark, quiet room I have for a moment a great and treasurable illusion of the past...In such fortunate moments as I fall asleep I know beyond doubt what the real center of my own life is, that time which is past and lost and yet is permanent, the enduring moment, the heart of warmth.

Just started The Dispossessed.

[Andorion]

worry, on 16 September 2019 - 08:54 PM, said:

Finished Grey Sister. This series is surprisingly slow burn in comparison to the Broken Empire books. I find myself reading them slower. I like it plenty regardless though. Neat to see a fantasy author create such starkly different worlds.

Now reading On A Sunbeam, a graphic novel by Tillie Walden. I guess it was a webcomic first, but the paperback is really nice lookin.

I am reading this too and I really like the visual style

[worry]

Oh nice. Is this a coincidence or did someone on the board recommend this? I have totally blanked on where I heard about it, so it very likely could be here. I'm only a couple chapters in, but yah I like the art style and where/when Walden chooses to add pops of color.

[Macros]

Cyphon, on 15 September 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

As such I just devoured the first of the Daughter of the Empire series by Fiest and Wurts. Started the second now. Love all the links to the original trilogy and how it neatly builds out the world and the plots from one small bit of the original trilogy and one character feature into a gripping story. They've also done action and consequence plotting really well too.

Book 2 is even stronger.

Really is feists best work

[Maark Abbott]

Been ages since I read those but always remember the Cho-ja (I think?). Insect duuuuuuuuuudes.

[QuickTidal]

Already 80 pages into FOTR re-read, and it's freshly impressing me how much a re-read is so much richer after reading the SILMARILLION and other TALES books...but also how deft the shifts and mild changes that Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Philippa Boyens made to the film version are. Like shifting the majority of the exposition about the One Ring's history, all of which happens in the passage between Frodo and Gandalf in Bag End some 16 years after Bilbo leaves the party, to Galadriel's opening narration and the Last Alliance scenes with Gil-Galad, Isildur and Elrond ect. serves to not only open the audience into the world of LOTR with a grounding of the stakes and a bit of history...but it also serves as a MAJOR pace-driver in the films to remove most of it and just have Gandalf come in, throw the ring in the fire, and Frodo realizes he has to run with it and they are off. In the film, the scene as it plays in the book would have juddered the film to a halt (I expect this is why the fabled Tom Bombadil section was also cut), so it needed to be cut down to almost nothing...but instead of losing that important exposition or trying to give it to Gandalf and Frodo elsewhere, it's given to Galadriel in the prologue. I mean this is why they won the Oscars. Adaptation is HARD on a volume of work this size, but they took their time and managed it quite well.

[Tiste Simeon]

And also why the Hobbit films are an abomination...

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 17 September 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

And also why the Hobbit films are an abomination...

What blows my mind is how buried in those films are the bones of the same quality as the LOTR trilogy, but the rushing of the HOBBIT films and the behind the scenes shenanigans; Guillermo Del Toro taking up almost the entirety of the pre-production time and then bailing out when he realized the undertaking would see him and his family living in NZ for years, New Line banging on Peter Jackson's door as the replacement but then giving him almost NO lead-in time to plan it out (a cushion of years he'd been given on LOTR in contrast) demanding much more CGI than practical effects, and his illness which took him off set for months meant that the script and the basic scene construction came with the penalty of rushing (in some cases they shot days without a script because the pages were not yet ready). But I mean, the behind the scenes at WETA was largely the same crew as LOTR...but the timeline was so jammed into such a tiny window that it would have been impossible to pull off a viable set of films. Splitting it into three films was a mistake...but the reasoning behind some of it is quite sound. The book has Gandalf simply disappear a bunch of times...and reappear later with little to no explanation. The flushing out of Sauron from Mirkwood occurs in one of these sojourns, as does the White Council meeting. These things don't work in a film unless they are present. You can't have a lead character disappear in a film for chunks. So those things demanded to be in the script. That said, I feel like it could have stayed as two films (AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY, and THERE, AND BACK AGAIN as originally intended), AND included all that stuff while reducing the extraneous stuff or expanded things like the extended Goblin fight, or the extended Barrel Chase roller coaster, and especially the BOTFA. Those things stretched out far too long and became largely nonsensical as a result. But cut them down to smaller sequences, leave in the Mirkwood, White Council stuff, the Radagast stuff, and I feel like it would have been a tidy duology and would not be the laughing stock that it is today.

TL;DR: There is tonnes of stuff I LOVE in the HOBBIT films, but I'd be lying if I said they were executed at any level close to that of LOTR...and most of that is on the Studio (New Line) for mega-rushing production, GDT for bailing at the last minute, and PJ for allowing the script to get away from him and over-indulging in some of his more schlocky horror film past (goblin fight) instead of going for tighter choices, plus his illness and surgery which made New Line even MORE antsy for ROI on the films (I believe this is where the 3-film split choice was made as a way to appease shareholders). Given more cushioning time between writing and shooting, and less of a monetized ROI focus by New Line...they could have very well been great. The cast as certainly incredible.

Though Arwen in her smaller role in three films is 100% better than Tauriel in her larger role in her three films. Sorry Evangeline.

[Abyss]

Macros, on 17 September 2019 - 06:23 AM, said:

Cyphon, on 15 September 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

As such I just devoured the first of the Daughter of the Empire series by Fiest and Wurts. Started the second now. Love all the links to the original trilogy and how it neatly builds out the world and the plots from one small bit of the original trilogy and one character feature into a gripping story. They've also done action and consequence plotting really well too.

Book 2 is even stronger.

Really is feists best work

Are you referring to Feist's MAGICIAN series as the 'original trilogy' or is there a second EMPIRE trilo that i cannot find evidence of on the internet?

Maark Abbott, on 17 September 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

Been ages since I read those but always remember the Cho-ja (I think?). Insect duuuuuuuuuudes.

Those were fun.
I liked how a plot point of the second book was

Spoiler

Mara negotiating to recruit the new Queen bug to make a hive on her territory.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

... (I expect this is why the fabled Tom Bombadil section was also cut), ...

Tom Bombadil was cut because he's a useless character who speaks in bad rhymes and adds nothing to the book except bad rhymes.

Fight me.

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 17 September 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

And also why the Hobbit films are an abomination...

What blows my mind is how buried in those films are the bones of the same quality as the LOTR trilogy, but the rushing of the HOBBIT films and the behind the scenes shenanigans; Guillermo Del Toro taking up almost the entirety of the pre-production time and then bailing out when he realized the undertaking would see him and his family living in NZ for years, New Line banging on Peter Jackson's door as the replacement but then giving him almost NO lead-in time to plan it out (a cushion of years he'd been given on LOTR in contrast) demanding much more CGI than practical effects, and his illness which took him off set for months meant that the script and the basic scene construction came with the penalty of rushing (in some cases they shot days without a script because the pages were not yet ready). But I mean, the behind the scenes at WETA was largely the same crew as LOTR...but the timeline was so jammed into such a tiny window that it would have been impossible to pull off a viable set of films. Splitting it into three films was a mistake...but the reasoning behind some of it is quite sound. The book has Gandalf simply disappear a bunch of times...and reappear later with little to no explanation. The flushing out of Sauron from Mirkwood occurs in one of these sojourns, as does the White Council meeting. These things don't work in a film unless they are present. You can't have a lead character disappear in a film for chunks. So those things demanded to be in the script. That said, I feel like it could have stayed as two films (AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY, and THERE, AND BACK AGAIN as originally intended), AND included all that stuff while reducing the extraneous stuff or expanded things like the extended Goblin fight, or the extended Barrel Chase roller coaster, and especially the BOTFA. Those things stretched out far too long and became largely nonsensical as a result. But cut them down to smaller sequences, leave in the Mirkwood, White Council stuff, the Radagast stuff, and I feel like it would have been a tidy duology and would not be the laughing stock that it is today.

TL;DR: There is tonnes of stuff I LOVE in the HOBBIT films, but I'd be lying if I said they were executed at any level close to that of LOTR...and most of that is on the Studio (New Line) for mega-rushing production, GDT for bailing at the last minute, and PJ for allowing the script to get away from him and over-indulging in some of his more schlocky horror film past (goblin fight) instead of going for tighter choices, plus his illness and surgery which made New Line even MORE antsy for ROI on the films (I believe this is where the 3-film split choice was made as a way to appease shareholders). Given more cushioning time between writing and shooting, and less of a monetized ROI focus by New Line...they could have very well been great. The cast as certainly incredible.

Though Arwen in her smaller role in three films is 100% better than Tauriel in her larger role in her three films. Sorry Evangeline.

STL;SDR: The HOBBIT films suck because Hollywood.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 17 September 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 01:34 PM, said:

... (I expect this is why the fabled Tom Bombadil section was also cut), ...

Tom Bombadil was cut because he's a useless character who speaks in bad rhymes and adds nothing to the book except bad rhymes.

Fight me.

No need. I agree 100%. Tolkien tried to give him more reverence in the LOST TALES books and paint him as a Maiar of Gandalf's level, but it never stuck. So he stands out in FOTR as a sore thumb.

Abyss, on 17 September 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 17 September 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

And also why the Hobbit films are an abomination...

What blows my mind is how buried in those films are the bones of the same quality as the LOTR trilogy, but the rushing of the HOBBIT films and the behind the scenes shenanigans; Guillermo Del Toro taking up almost the entirety of the pre-production time and then bailing out when he realized the undertaking would see him and his family living in NZ for years, New Line banging on Peter Jackson's door as the replacement but then giving him almost NO lead-in time to plan it out (a cushion of years he'd been given on LOTR in contrast) demanding much more CGI than practical effects, and his illness which took him off set for months meant that the script and the basic scene construction came with the penalty of rushing (in some cases they shot days without a script because the pages were not yet ready). But I mean, the behind the scenes at WETA was largely the same crew as LOTR...but the timeline was so jammed into such a tiny window that it would have been impossible to pull off a viable set of films. Splitting it into three films was a mistake...but the reasoning behind some of it is quite sound. The book has Gandalf simply disappear a bunch of times...and reappear later with little to no explanation. The flushing out of Sauron from Mirkwood occurs in one of these sojourns, as does the White Council meeting. These things don't work in a film unless they are present. You can't have a lead character disappear in a film for chunks. So those things demanded to be in the script. That said, I feel like it could have stayed as two films (AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY, and THERE, AND BACK AGAIN as originally intended), AND included all that stuff while reducing the extraneous stuff or expanded things like the extended Goblin fight, or the extended Barrel Chase roller coaster, and especially the BOTFA. Those things stretched out far too long and became largely nonsensical as a result. But cut them down to smaller sequences, leave in the Mirkwood, White Council stuff, the Radagast stuff, and I feel like it would have been a tidy duology and would not be the laughing stock that it is today.

TL;DR: There is tonnes of stuff I LOVE in the HOBBIT films, but I'd be lying if I said they were executed at any level close to that of LOTR...and most of that is on the Studio (New Line) for mega-rushing production, GDT for bailing at the last minute, and PJ for allowing the script to get away from him and over-indulging in some of his more schlocky horror film past (goblin fight) instead of going for tighter choices, plus his illness and surgery which made New Line even MORE antsy for ROI on the films (I believe this is where the 3-film split choice was made as a way to appease shareholders). Given more cushioning time between writing and shooting, and less of a monetized ROI focus by New Line...they could have very well been great. The cast as certainly incredible.

Though Arwen in her smaller role in three films is 100% better than Tauriel in her larger role in her three films. Sorry Evangeline.

STL;SDR: The HOBBIT films suck because Hollywood.

Legit truth.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Guillermo Del Toro taking up almost the entirety of the pre-production time and then bailing out when he realized the undertaking would see him and his family living in NZ for years,

Harsh way of framing it. The film had repeatedly been delayed and at the time he quit still hadn't actually formally been greenlit. Comitting to living x amount of time abroad is totally different to comitting to spending an undefined-but-already-had-to-be-longer-than-originally-planned amount of time abroad for a project you don't actually know will ever come to fruition, especially when you have other commitments on the go. Immediately hiring Jackson and launching into production after that happened is all on the studio.

[Salt-Man Z]

Required watching* for The Hobbit film info:

Part 1/2 • Part 2/2 • Part 3/2



*Hugo-nominated!

[worry]

The only "required" watching for The Hobbit movies is those wonderful movies themselves.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 17 September 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 17 September 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Guillermo Del Toro taking up almost the entirety of the pre-production time and then bailing out when he realized the undertaking would see him and his family living in NZ for years,

Harsh way of framing it. The film had repeatedly been delayed and at the time he quit still hadn't actually formally been greenlit. Comitting to living x amount of time abroad is totally different to comitting to spending an undefined-but-already-had-to-be-longer-than-originally-planned amount of time abroad for a project you don't actually know will ever come to fruition, especially when you have other commitments on the go. Immediately hiring Jackson and launching into production after that happened is all on the studio.

Well...not really. I can still lay a lot of blame at GDT's feet. The guy isn't exactly known as any kind of stable creative behaviour. He's super flaky and always has been. I've seen a master series lecture from the guy...he's a mega flake and admits that.

- The costs of 1.5 years of money had been sunk into GDT's pre-production on the films, greenlight or not. There is an extra 6 months that GDT spent of his own time prior to that, and he got deep into it. The green lighting was on the tail end of MGM's financial issues, but make no mistake he had spent those 1.5 years of money... Hell, his Smaug design (which was unpopular with the designers anyways) was a massive sunk cost. Pre-production began in 2008 when GDT came on board, and he left in 2010 or thereabouts, Jackson not officially signing on till Oct...leaving Jackson barely over a year to get from pre to post. Which is insanity. The greenlight GDT was waiting for was just the shoot itself and post...which he claimed would be 370 days anyways. So the fact that it was all done and he bailed out because they'd not been given the light to shoot the thing...is asinine considering he used that time for pre-prod anyways. Jackson was greenlit to shoot the same month he was officially hired to direct. So that greenlight was coming, GDT just got impatient.

- Del Toro wanted everyone from LOTR to reprise their roles. Not just the few that did reprise their roles, but EVERYONE. It's been established that he wanted to do this because he wanted to visually separate his Hobbit films from the LOTR films because it was going to "look" and "feel" different so he wanted to re-establish everything under the Del Toro banner. Which I dislike on a personal level, but moreover this would have been part of the $$$ negotiations for the greenlight because you're casting a brand new movie and you want the entire cast of the previous trilogy too...apparently. That's a tough pill to swallow.

- For the purists out there, GDT was also the person who invented and inserted Tauriel and the love triangle with Tauriel, Legolas, and Kili. Not PJ as everyone previously assumed. This is not surprising since he did the exact same thing in HELLBOY when he created Agent Myers, inserted him into the HB mythos, and then created a stupid love triangle between HB, Myers, and Liz.

- He admitted that he didn't much LIKE the LOTR books. He took the job so that he could make his own twisty gothic version of a story he didn't even really like. Apropos of nothing, he was also going to have all the animals talk...so that Smaug would not feel incongruous...because he apparently misunderstood where Smaug and the other worms came from in Middle Earth.

As such I'm not sure I can feasibly lay all of that at MGM/New Line's feet since they were literally trying to recoup a flailing studio with a big budget multiple film prequel to one of the most successful film series of all time...and the guy chosen to write and direct them bails out after inflating the budget requirements with unrealistic goals and selfish attempts to control the narrative. I really don't give a flying crap what his given reasons were. He chose to actively jump into 2 years of pre-production on a huge film franchise, only to bail out and leave the production scrambling to be saved.

[Abyss]

All true, but i would add my thought that the original deci$ion to make a three movie mega-trilogy out of a single book shorter than any of the LotR trilo books didn't exactly set the stage for success.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I'm sure I saw Evangeline Lily stating the romance was added in re-shoots. Not discounting the rest of what you said, but that would suggest it was an idea added afterwards rather than something del Toro came up with in the beginning.

I'd never seen the "whole cast reprise" thing before. My god, would that have been awful (given the mess of needless Legolas we got, and that's just one...)