[End of Disc One]

Both BSC and The Heroes are awesome. Abercrombie's two best books. BSC is more entertaining, but The Heroes is the better structured story. I'd give the edge to BSC just slightly.

[worry]

Friendly is my favorite Abercrombie character, bar none. I liked all three of the standalones 'better' than the First Law, tbh, meaning no disrespect to the originals.

[worry]

Did you read Sharp Ends?

[Macros]

If you haven't BK pick it up, some excellent short stories. Especially one about glockta

[worry]

Yup.

[JPK]

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Spoilers for Farseer and Liveship 1/2:

Spoiler

So, it's supposed to be stupidly obvious that Amber is The Fool, right? Affinity for wood, pale coloring, adept at disguises... Hell, there was even a point in Mad Ship when the first mate called her a fool to her face and she responds with 'I've been called a fool before and I likely will be again."

Seriously though, I'm absolutely in awe of not only her famed characterization, but her world-building. Dragons, telepaths, golems, sea serpents... none of these are fresh concepts on their own. However, she has taken these core fantasy staples and created something truly unique and wonderful from them. Sea serpents as a larval stage of a dragon, telepaths that imprint their memories onto dragonish shaped golems that have memory-wiping effects when they pass overhead...

In audio, I'm chipping away at RotCG. I'm working on chapter 3 now and paying a lot more attention this time due to the events in Dancer's Lament. How far in are you BK? I'm mostly curious to see if I can catch up to you.

[Andorion]

Puck, on 06 May 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 May 2018 - 01:38 AM, said:

I finished reading Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie.

Finishing this book reminded me of why I don't like Abercrombie.

The book started off excellently, about halfway in, I could hardly stop reading. But then Abercrombie's tendency to invert and corrupt everything kicked in, which immediately saw the storytelling and plot points sacrificed. Competent characters became insufferably stupid. By the time I finished I was sighing in irritation.

Agreed. I dropped Abercrombie like a hot potato after BSC. Partly because of this (I don't mind all doom and gloom, provided it does not make the characters act like idiots, though), partly because it dragged on way too long and partly because he used the same character archetypes as in his first trilogy but no way near as effectively. I still like the First Law trilogy, but there's a lot of other stuff out there to read.

Though I remember that my opinion was very unpopular on here back when BSC was freshly released.

IMO he does make his characters, especially the poisoner act like idiots. One of the reasons I disliked the second half. Also it was a bit predictable.

Slow Ben, on 07 May 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Macros, on 07 May 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 May 2018 - 01:38 AM, said:

I finished reading Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie.

Finishing this book reminded me of why I don't like Abercrombie.

The book started off excellently, about halfway in, I could hardly stop reading. But then Abercrombie's tendency to invert and corrupt everything kicked in, which immediately saw the storytelling and plot points sacrificed. Competent characters became insufferably stupid. By the time I finished I was sighing in irritation.

Agreed. I dropped Abercrombie like a hot potato after BSC. Partly because of this (I don't mind all doom and gloom, provided it does not make the characters act like idiots, though), partly because it dragged on way too long and partly because he used the same character archetypes as in his first trilogy but no way near as effectively. I still like the First Law trilogy, but there's a lot of other stuff out there to read.

Though I remember that my opinion was very unpopular on here back when BSC was freshly released.

IIRC there were a few of us that didn't like it, I actually struggled to finish I think, certainly have no desire to revisit it anyway. But if you did enjoy the first law trilo I'd say give The Heroes a bash, it has everything that was good about it and a lot less of what was bad about BSC

Agreed. Best Served Cold is the only Abercrombie book that i've not enjoyed. And like Ando, I enjoyed about the firs half, and that was about it.

After the first half, I felt like all the momentum just went away. Like Abercrombie was saying "Right, now time to mess with things."

Abyss, on 07 May 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

Slow Ben, on 07 May 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Macros, on 07 May 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

Puck, on 06 May 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 May 2018 - 01:38 AM, said:

I finished reading Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie.

Finishing this book reminded me of why I don't like Abercrombie.

The book started off excellently, about halfway in, I could hardly stop reading. But then Abercrombie's tendency to invert and corrupt everything kicked in, which immediately saw the storytelling and plot points sacrificed. Competent characters became insufferably stupid. By the time I finished I was sighing in irritation.

Agreed. I dropped Abercrombie like a hot potato after BSC. Partly because of this (I don't mind all doom and gloom, provided it does not make the characters act like idiots, though), partly because it dragged on way too long and partly because he used the same character archetypes as in his first trilogy but no way near as effectively. I still like the First Law trilogy, but there's a lot of other stuff out there to read.

Though I remember that my opinion was very unpopular on here back when BSC was freshly released.

IIRC there were a few of us that didn't like it, I actually struggled to finish I think, certainly have no desire to revisit it anyway. But if you did enjoy the first law trilo I'd say give The Heroes a bash, it has everything that was good about it and a lot less of what was bad about BSC

Agreed. Best Served Cold is the only Abercrombie book that i've not enjoyed. And like Ando, I enjoyed about the firs half, and that was about it.

Counterpoint: BEST SERVED COLD was his bestest book, for being the most original, with the most interesting protagonist, and a great combo of revenge, heist, and big battle elements.

A revenge saga is not really original though.

Mentalist, on 07 May 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

BSC is a grimdark, fantasy version of "Count of Monte Christo" . And it's awesome.

"The Heroes" , otoh, was a drag

Come on Ment. It does not hold a candle to Monte Cristo. What happened in Monte Cristo after the Villefort segment and he revisited the prison was one of the best sections I have ever read.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Brust's Book of Athyra, collecting Athyra and Orca.

[End of Disc One]

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Posts like this make me wonder if I should give the Fitz books another shot. A lot of people on Reddit consider them an all time favorite. I liked the first two books okay but I didn't love them, and I heard about the slog of book 3. It seems most rabid fans adore books 1 and 2 though.

[Tiste Simeon]

End of Disc One, on 08 May 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Posts like this make me wonder if I should give the Fitz books another shot. A lot of people on Reddit consider them an all time favorite. I liked the first two books okay but I didn't love them, and I heard about the slog of book 3. It seems most rabid fans adore books 1 and 2 though.

Yeah I read the first Assassin's series. It was... Fine... Didn't really inspire me to read any more. Didn't hate it though.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 08 May 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

...

Abyss said:

Counterpoint: BEST SERVED COLD was his bestest book, for being the most original, with the most interesting protagonist, and a great combo of revenge, heist, and big battle elements.

A revenge saga is not really original though.

Most original of Abercrombie's work.

But that said, how many fantasy lit revenge sagas just spring to mind? genuine questions, bcs I'm drawing a blank....

[worry]

The Lord of the Rings

[nicetrout]

Foucault's History of Sexuality 2: The Uses of Pleasure

[Puck]

Tiste Simeon, on 08 May 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 08 May 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Posts like this make me wonder if I should give the Fitz books another shot. A lot of people on Reddit consider them an all time favorite. I liked the first two books okay but I didn't love them, and I heard about the slog of book 3. It seems most rabid fans adore books 1 and 2 though.

Yeah I read the first Assassin's series. It was... Fine... Didn't really inspire me to read any more. Didn't hate it though.

@End & Tiste: For what it's worth, I really don't like Fitz (with the exception of Royal Assassin, but that's largely because the Fool figures so prominently in it), especially the Tawny Man trilogy, BUT I would still wholeheartedly recommend the Liveship Traders trilogy. It's no spoiler to say that there's no Fitz in there and the story takes place in a different part of the world. I think that not limiting herself to Mr. Whiny-man opens up the scene for Hobb to show what she really is capable of, especially regarding characterization and worldbuilding, and this trilogy is very much self-contained. So if you didn't care much for Farseer I would still say it's worth to try Liveship Traders. There's not all that much that needs to be known from Farseer to understand Liveship Traders, I think. Others may disagree.

Also, don't let yourself be confused by BK's numbering of the books. The proper sequence of the series is Farseer -> Liveship Traders -> Tawny Man and then the rest, and not reading Liveship Traders means not reading half the story.

Anyway, I say Liveship Traders is totally worth a try, then pretend that's where the series ended (that's advice for those who didn't care for Fitz, btw, before anyone jumps me because of that statement).

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Spoilers for Farseer and Liveship 1/2:

Spoiler

So, it's supposed to be stupidly obvious that Amber is The Fool, right? Affinity for wood, pale coloring, adept at disguises... Hell, there was even a point in Mad Ship when the first mate called her a fool to her face and she responds with 'I've been called a fool before and I likely will be again."

Seriously though, I'm absolutely in awe of not only her famed characterization, but her world-building. Dragons, telepaths, golems, sea serpents... none of these are fresh concepts on their own. However, she has taken these core fantasy staples and created something truly unique and wonderful from them. Sea serpents as a larval stage of a dragon, telepaths that imprint their memories onto dragonish shaped golems that have memory-wiping effects when they pass overhead...

Spoiler

I think it is. I mean, it just jumps out at you. That said, I love how Amber is, in fact, a different person from the Fool, personality-wise. It shows the depth of the character and Hobb's skill at characterization. For added fun, there's even a scene where Amber shows Althea how to disguise herself as a boy. There are a lot of references to who Amber is all over the place.

Then again, the Fool in all his guises is one of my favourite characters of all time. It's a pity I have to deal with Fitz to read more about him..

[End of Disc One]

About 100 pages into Morgan's The Steel Remains. I'm enjoying it but an appendix would really be helpful to keep track of all of these terms. I did just find a map online so that will help.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Puck, on 08 May 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Spoilers for Farseer and Liveship 1/2:

Spoiler

So, it's supposed to be stupidly obvious that Amber is The Fool, right? Affinity for wood, pale coloring, adept at disguises... Hell, there was even a point in Mad Ship when the first mate called her a fool to her face and she responds with 'I've been called a fool before and I likely will be again."

Seriously though, I'm absolutely in awe of not only her famed characterization, but her world-building. Dragons, telepaths, golems, sea serpents... none of these are fresh concepts on their own. However, she has taken these core fantasy staples and created something truly unique and wonderful from them. Sea serpents as a larval stage of a dragon, telepaths that imprint their memories onto dragonish shaped golems that have memory-wiping effects when they pass overhead...

Spoiler

I think it is. I mean, it just jumps out at you. That said, I love how Amber is, in fact, a different person from the Fool, personality-wise. It shows the depth of the character and Hobb's skill at characterization. For added fun, there's even a scene where Amber shows Althea how to disguise herself as a boy. There are a lot of references to who Amber is all over the place.

Spoiler

I didn't twig Fool = Amber until part way through The Golden Fool I think - mind you, I read Liveship first and then went back to Assassin, which I don't think helped. I remember grinning from ear to ear when the lightbulb went off though!

I'd agree with giving Liveship a chance even when people don't care for Fitz. I read the Liveship trilogy first, and adored it. Fitz is a bit of a come down but I like enough of what's going on around him to still really enjoy the Farseer trilogies.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 09 May 2018 - 02:12 PM

[Chance]

Nearly done with Dancer's Lament and must say Esslemont really finds his stride here, a more focused and in some ways simpler story but done really well. I'm also sure I could likely read a dozen books of this kind on the backstory of the old guard.

[Abyss]

Chance, on 09 May 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Nearly done with Dancer's Lament ... I could likely read a dozen books of this kind on the backstory of the old guard.

Seconded.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 09 May 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Chance, on 09 May 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Nearly done with Dancer's Lament ... I could likely read a dozen books of this kind on the backstory of the old guard.

Seconded.

Thirded.

[Andorion]

End of Disc One, on 09 May 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

About 100 pages into Morgan's The Steel Remains. I'm enjoying it but an appendix would really be helpful to keep track of all of these terms. I did just find a map online so that will help.

A great start to a great trilogy. Enjoy!

QuickTidal, on 09 May 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

Abyss, on 09 May 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Chance, on 09 May 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Nearly done with Dancer's Lament ... I could likely read a dozen books of this kind on the backstory of the old guard.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Fourthed! I would want a full ten book Rise and Fall of the Old Guard series.

Currently reading Malice by John Gwynne. After a decidedly sedate start and tame first half it drastically improves in the second half.