[acesn8s]

End of Disc One, on 06 January 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

I'm also reading Kushiel's Dart and it's great. I put off reading for a while because of the covers. But this is epic fantasy with no more sex than ASoIaF.

Damnit...err woo-hoo!

[Andorion]

Finishes Bakker's Thousandfold Thought.

Woah.

I am seriously impressed. This is the best epic fantasy I have read outside Malazan.

This is some seriously great stuff.

One thing I did not get - all this talk about Bakker being dark - it really is not that dark. I mean, the world is dark and the characters unlikable, but those characters are also fascinating.

Frankly I think SE can be far darker if he wants to.

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 07 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Finishes Bakker's Thousandfold Thought.

Woah.

I am seriously impressed. This is the best epic fantasy I have read outside Malazan.

This is some seriously great stuff.

One thing I did not get - all this talk about Bakker being dark - it really is not that dark. I mean, the world is dark and the characters unlikable, but those characters are also fascinating.

Frankly I think SE can be far darker if he wants to.

I've voiced my opinions on this many time previously. Short form is: fuck Kelhus, I want him to writhe in the pits of Hell.

I'd be interested to hear what you thing of the Slog of Slogs, once you get there.

Once I'm done catching up in my current batch of re-reads + next book in series, I'm gonna buy TGO and tackle Bakker's second series again.

[End of Disc One]

I should finish The White Luck Warrior today. I find Khellus fascinating and I don't agree with any Mary Sue complaints I've seen in other places. That sort of misses the point.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 07 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Frankly I think SE can be far darker if he wants to.

Erikson absolutely is darker. What is different about the two is that with Erikson, the dark parts are in intervals along with the physical comedy, the drama, the nicer moments etc, while with Bakker, the non-serious moments are few and far between. That seems to give Bakker a reputation for "being darker", when he's not actually that.

They're two different routes of tackling different mountains, but both valid (to my eyes) and people who crap all over Bakker usually do it for reasons he doesn't deserve to be criticized for. Some of this is that the critics frequently don't have enough context/awareness to put his stuff in the right place in the overall field and take it apart mechanically. Some of this is that the dark stuff Bakker works with has a history of being used terribly by many authors and there's a bit of displacement (of frustration, anger, and hurt) upon him for working that stuff.

That being said, Bakker took the criticisms of him seriously and made himself a better writer. The second series takes us to some seriously interesting places and it's because he challenged himself to be better due to the criticism.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 January 2017 - 07:46 PM

[Puck]

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

This post has been edited by Puck: 07 January 2017 - 11:05 PM

[End of Disc One]

Damn Secret History is by far my favorite. I love the fan service.

[Andorion]

Puck, on 07 January 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

Puck don't say things like this! I have a Classics challenge to finish and I have one Austen and one Bronte to deal with!

Now I am scared

[Andorion]

Mentalist, on 07 January 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Andorion, on 07 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Finishes Bakker's Thousandfold Thought.

Woah.

I am seriously impressed. This is the best epic fantasy I have read outside Malazan.

This is some seriously great stuff.

One thing I did not get - all this talk about Bakker being dark - it really is not that dark. I mean, the world is dark and the characters unlikable, but those characters are also fascinating.

Frankly I think SE can be far darker if he wants to.

I've voiced my opinions on this many time previously. Short form is: fuck Kelhus, I want him to writhe in the pits of Hell.

I'd be interested to hear what you thing of the Slog of Slogs, once you get there.

Once I'm done catching up in my current batch of re-reads + next book in series, I'm gonna buy TGO and tackle Bakker's second series again.

amphibian, on 07 January 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Andorion, on 07 January 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Frankly I think SE can be far darker if he wants to.

Erikson absolutely is darker. What is different about the two is that with Erikson, the dark parts are in intervals along with the physical comedy, the drama, the nicer moments etc, while with Bakker, the non-serious moments are few and far between. That seems to give Bakker a reputation for "being darker", when he's not actually that.

They're two different routes of tackling different mountains, but both valid (to my eyes) and people who crap all over Bakker usually do it for reasons he doesn't deserve to be criticized for. Some of this is that the critics frequently don't have enough context/awareness to put his stuff in the right place in the overall field and take it apart mechanically. Some of this is that the dark stuff Bakker works with has a history of being used terribly by many authors and there's a bit of displacement (of frustration, anger, and hurt) upon him for working that stuff.

That being said, Bakker took the criticisms of him seriously and made himself a better writer. The second series takes us to some seriously interesting places and it's because he challenged himself to be better due to the criticism.

From what I have read so far it seems pretty clear to me that applying the likable/unlikable character dichotomy to Bakker is pretty pointless.

His characters are not meant to be likable. Kellhuss is not a traditional hero. But he is fascinating to follow.

I greatly appreciated the philosophy/ Compared to FoD and FoL it was pretty light.

I loved the battles. Solidly described, solidly plotted.

The character arcs were very interesting, especially for Cnaiur. I hope we see more of him

[EmperorMagus]

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

From what I have read so far it seems pretty clear to me that applying the likable/unlikable character dichotomy to Bakker is pretty pointless.

His characters are not meant to be likable. Kellhuss is not a traditional hero. But he is fascinating to follow.

I greatly appreciated the philosophy/ Compared to FoD and FoL it was pretty light.

I loved the battles. Solidly described, solidly plotted.

The character arcs were very interesting, especially for Cnaiur. I hope we see more of him

What I really like about the series is its basic philosophy. "The Darkness that Comes Before" as a concept is something you can fairly easily argue for using psychological research articles. It has been shown that researchers can predict the way a person is going to act minutes before that person consciously decides to do the thing using fMRIs. One of my Professors had written has written a thesis on predicting the outcome of people's attempts to stop smoking. He would present them with some stimuli before their attempts started and record the fMRI readings of their brains. Months later he followed up with them and asked them to report their success. You could predict the results of their attempts based on the initial fMRIs fairly accurately.

My point is, I am fairly certain that our belief in conscious choice is a farce, and the concept of someone who has achieved complete control over their own body through rigorous training and selective breeding is exhilarating. Bakker does a very good job exploring how that person would act when introduced to the world of normal people.

I also see no real reason why Kellhus should act according to 21 century western morals, he has none of the history and context that we have. What acceptable reason is there for someone raised like Kellhus to act as if they were a saint?

[Andorion]

EmperorMagus, on 08 January 2017 - 01:36 AM, said:

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

From what I have read so far it seems pretty clear to me that applying the likable/unlikable character dichotomy to Bakker is pretty pointless.

His characters are not meant to be likable. Kellhuss is not a traditional hero. But he is fascinating to follow.

I greatly appreciated the philosophy/ Compared to FoD and FoL it was pretty light.

I loved the battles. Solidly described, solidly plotted.

The character arcs were very interesting, especially for Cnaiur. I hope we see more of him

What I really like about the series is its basic philosophy. "The Darkness that Comes Before" as a concept is something you can fairly easily argue for using psychological research articles. It has been shown that researchers can predict the way a person is going to act minutes before that person consciously decides to do the thing using fMRIs. One of my Professors had written has written a thesis on predicting the outcome of people's attempts to stop smoking. He would present them with some stimuli before their attempts started and record the fMRI readings of their brains. Months later he followed up with them and asked them to report their success. You could predict the results of their attempts based on the initial fMRIs fairly accurately.

My point is, I am fairly certain that our belief in conscious choice is a farce, and the concept of someone who has achieved complete control over their own body through rigorous training and selective breeding is exhilarating. Bakker does a very good job exploring how that person would act when introduced to the world of normal people.

I also see no real reason why Kellhus should act according to 21 century western morals, he has none of the history and context that we have. What acceptable reason is there for someone raised like Kellhus to act as if they were a saint?

The Darkness that Comes Before is a fascinating concept and I think Bakker applied it really well.

I don't see why Kellhus has to act according to any morals really - he is the classical outsider - he is so different he might actually be an alien, and he has an agenda of his own.

The one thing I did not understand was the Thousandfold Thought. What was it?

[EmperorMagus]

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Darkness that Comes Before is a fascinating concept and I think Bakker applied it really well.

I don't see why Kellhus has to act according to any morals really - he is the classical outsider - he is so different he might actually be an alien, and he has an agenda of his own.

The one thing I did not understand was the Thousandfold Thought. What was it?

Possible Spoilers for people who haven't read the book.

Spoiler

I haven't read TGO, so I'm not sure if what I believe is the correct interpretation.

Kellhus is a human machine, he has unbelievable computing power and throughout the first trilogy uses that computing power to decide on a single choice, see the results of that choice and the results of different branches of future choices and therefore arrive at his preferred outcome. The problem with that approach was that sometimes, outside elements he had not considered at all interfered with his plans (like the first time Consult interferes)

When he achieves the thousandfold thought, it's something similar to being one with the world. It's when Kellhus has enough information, insight, computing power, etc. that he can see the future as clearly as the present or the past. Basically, the thousandfold thought is the purest form of prophecy.

[EmperorMagus]

So I did a quick search to see if my memory served me right, and I found someone who has explained the theory I had far better than I did above.

Spoiler

Quote

I found this interesting. The goal of the Dunyain, as least as far as we have been told, is to obtain the absolute. So to obtain the absolute, to be a "self moving soul".

I have questioned why everyone who seems to "grasp" TTT seems to want to take it in a different direction. Maybe this is because there can only be 1 Absolute (no highlander reference intended). If TTT is the inevitable conclusion of following the probability trance long enough, then it would seem to be reasonable that to grasp the Absolute, one would need to control TTT.

TTT seems to be the culmination of the darkness that comes before. The culmination of all things that determine the actions of man. Now we go to the dunyain who want to be self moving. To do this nothing must come before. If even the Dunyain, after 2000 years of selective breeding, are in this ball of probability that is TTT, then they would need to control it to become outside of it.

So then there certainly could only be 1 person directing it, because baring being the only one, someone else would be controlling the future of you and everyone else.


Also I think it might be worth nothing the the Dunyain in Ishual cannot grasp TTT. This is because TTT is the inevitable conclusion of the probability trance followed with ALL variables. This includes war, sorcery, presumable the Tekne to some degree, and the Consult. This may help to explain why Ishual is not filled with Dunyain freaking about about the end of the world.


Creackpot?:
This could be one of the reason why upon finding Ishual, the original Dunyain ignored and even hid the existence of sorcery. They may have already have known seen TTT. They knew that the current apocalypse would not end the world, but that the second would certainly be the end of all things if nothing was done. So they hid themselves away in order to save the world from the end. It could have been that 2000 years of preparation, and perhaps many more, would be needed to save the world. If Ishual was left to try and control every one of the doomsday variables then maybe they would have been doomed to fail. But, if they could focus on just a few, if they could be given the tools to say detect the yet to be developed skin-spys, the brain power to wield the most devastating sorceries (without the need to develop scorecery for those 2000 years), and the physical prowess to defeat any circumstance.

Could the Dunyain have "stumbled" into Ishual and made it their contingecy play to change the fate of the world?

I may have more things to crackpot about but for now I'm out of time.

Source:http://www.second-ap...r43&topic=410.0

reply #10.

[Andorion]

EmperorMagus, on 08 January 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Darkness that Comes Before is a fascinating concept and I think Bakker applied it really well.

I don't see why Kellhus has to act according to any morals really - he is the classical outsider - he is so different he might actually be an alien, and he has an agenda of his own.

The one thing I did not understand was the Thousandfold Thought. What was it?

Possible Spoilers for people who haven't read the book.

Spoiler

I haven't read TGO, so I'm not sure if what I believe is the correct interpretation.

Kellhus is a human machine, he has unbelievable computing power and throughout the first trilogy uses that computing power to decide on a single choice, see the results of that choice and the results of different branches of future choices and therefore arrive at his preferred outcome. The problem with that approach was that sometimes, outside elements he had not considered at all interfered with his plans (like the first time Consult interferes)

When he achieves the thousandfold thought, it's something similar to being one with the world. It's when Kellhus has enough information, insight, computing power, etc. that he can see the future as clearly as the present or the past. Basically, the thousandfold thought is the purest form of prophecy.

EmperorMagus, on 08 January 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

So I did a quick search to see if my memory served me right, and I found someone who has explained the theory I had far better than I did above.

Spoiler

Quote

I found this interesting. The goal of the Dunyain, as least as far as we have been told, is to obtain the absolute. So to obtain the absolute, to be a "self moving soul".

I have questioned why everyone who seems to "grasp" TTT seems to want to take it in a different direction. Maybe this is because there can only be 1 Absolute (no highlander reference intended). If TTT is the inevitable conclusion of following the probability trance long enough, then it would seem to be reasonable that to grasp the Absolute, one would need to control TTT.

TTT seems to be the culmination of the darkness that comes before. The culmination of all things that determine the actions of man. Now we go to the dunyain who want to be self moving. To do this nothing must come before. If even the Dunyain, after 2000 years of selective breeding, are in this ball of probability that is TTT, then they would need to control it to become outside of it.

So then there certainly could only be 1 person directing it, because baring being the only one, someone else would be controlling the future of you and everyone else.


Also I think it might be worth nothing the the Dunyain in Ishual cannot grasp TTT. This is because TTT is the inevitable conclusion of the probability trance followed with ALL variables. This includes war, sorcery, presumable the Tekne to some degree, and the Consult. This may help to explain why Ishual is not filled with Dunyain freaking about about the end of the world.


Creackpot?:
This could be one of the reason why upon finding Ishual, the original Dunyain ignored and even hid the existence of sorcery. They may have already have known seen TTT. They knew that the current apocalypse would not end the world, but that the second would certainly be the end of all things if nothing was done. So they hid themselves away in order to save the world from the end. It could have been that 2000 years of preparation, and perhaps many more, would be needed to save the world. If Ishual was left to try and control every one of the doomsday variables then maybe they would have been doomed to fail. But, if they could focus on just a few, if they could be given the tools to say detect the yet to be developed skin-spys, the brain power to wield the most devastating sorceries (without the need to develop scorecery for those 2000 years), and the physical prowess to defeat any circumstance.

Could the Dunyain have "stumbled" into Ishual and made it their contingecy play to change the fate of the world?

I may have more things to crackpot about but for now I'm out of time.

Source:http://www.second-ap...r43&topic=410.0

reply #10.

I take this to mean that achieving TTT would mean that the Dunyain receive a perfect comprehension of causality - that is entirely dispelliing the Darkness that Comes Before and therefore can step outside causality themselves.

Interesting. I look forward to the next series.

[EmperorMagus]

Yep. That's a good way to put it.

[Puck]

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

Puck, on 07 January 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

Puck don't say things like this! I have a Classics challenge to finish and I have one Austen and one Bronte to deal with!

Now I am scared

Don't worry too much, I guess? At least Austen's easy to skim-read and very easy on the brain, nowhere near what you would be used to as a malazan reader, neither in prose nor anything else. With your reading speed, you should be done with one Austen book in like two days or something. I just have to take notes 'n shit and absolutely hate romance. I think I'd even find it much easier to read if I didn't HAVE to read it, as I have a tendency to push work-related reading away.

[Gabriele]

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

Puck, on 07 January 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

Puck don't say things like this! I have a Classics challenge to finish and I have one Austen and one Bronte to deal with!

Now I am scared

If you can pick your Austen, take Pride and Prejudice. It has some nice irony in parts. Mansfield Park is her most boring work, and the heroine is a dishrag. Elizabeth in PaP is a very different sort of girl.

Bronte - well, not Wuthering Heights if you can avoid it. The male MC, Heathcliff, makes Edward the Sparkly Emo Vampire look mature. Jane Eyre is an ok read.

This post has been edited by Gabriele: 08 January 2017 - 03:06 PM

[Andorion]

Gabriele, on 08 January 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

Puck, on 07 January 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

Puck don't say things like this! I have a Classics challenge to finish and I have one Austen and one Bronte to deal with!

Now I am scared

If you can pick your Austen, take Pride and Prejudice. It has some nice irony in parts. Mansfield Park is her most boring work, and the heroine is a dishrag. Elizabeth in PaP is a very different sort of girl.

Bronte - well, not Wuthering Heights if you can avoid it. The male MC, Heathcliff, makes Edward the Sparkly Emo Vampire look mature. Jane Eyre is an ok read.

Its Emma and Wuthering Heights

[Andorion]

Puck, on 08 January 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

Puck, on 07 January 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Austen's Mansfield Park. Someone safe me, please. I can't remember when - if ever - I have read something so boring the last time. Drinking doesn't make it any better either, as I just managed to spill wine all over myself when I almost fell asleep while reading and holding a glass. I'm sure the book has some merits when viewed in whatever context is appropriate, but even though I like a classic book once in a while, this is freaking boring.

Especially as I am also a couple of chapters into Bakker's The Great Ordeal and aside from FoL, the Aspect-Emperor books have been the best stuff I've read in the past year. I so want to chug Austen at the wall, but I should've finished this two weeks ago already..

Puck don't say things like this! I have a Classics challenge to finish and I have one Austen and one Bronte to deal with!

Now I am scared

Don't worry too much, I guess? At least Austen's easy to skim-read and very easy on the brain, nowhere near what you would be used to as a malazan reader, neither in prose nor anything else. With your reading speed, you should be done with one Austen book in like two days or something. I just have to take notes 'n shit and absolutely hate romance. I think I'd even find it much easier to read if I didn't HAVE to read it, as I have a tendency to push work-related reading away.

I don't think I have read anything outside academic texts that is as complex as Malazan.

Its not that which worries me. Its the theme - I really dislike romance set in Victorian and regency societies - it feels so suffocating.

But a challenge is a challenge.

[Puck]

Gabriele, on 08 January 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Mansfield Park is her most boring work, and the heroine is a dishrag.

Dishrag. Fanny Price in one word, ladies and gentlemen. And that's when she even bothers to be on the page, which she is not for chapters at a time.

Andorion, on 08 January 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

But a challenge is a challenge.

Look at it as a true challenge. Maybe make sport of how fast you can get through it? Try to learn faster reading with it? Some classics can be fun. Unfortunately, I'm with you on the romance stories, no matter how classic they are.