[JPK]

I'm at 75% on MADAME BOVARY now and it's fine. I don't hate the book, though I do hate Emma. Is there a read where she's sympathetic? Cause I just don't see it. She's awful.

It's also interesting reading this with an eye on the prose. Seeing how it really mirrors Emma's mental state and how it tends to be very drab when she's depressed but really opens up when she's going through one of her manic episodes affairs.

This post has been edited by JPK: Yesterday, 04:02 PM

[QuickTidal]

JPK, on 17 September 2025 - 04:02 PM, said:

I'm at 75% on MADAME BOVARY now and it's fine. I don't hate the book, though I do hate Emma. Is there a read where she's sympathetic? Cause I just don't see it. She's awful.

Gods no. Though ostensibly the protagonist, she's 100% visited upon Charles as revenge for him marrying (being married off really) a rich widower himself because she rolls through that life having unrealistic views of society (stemming from her love of art and theatre) and therefore is never EVER happy with her state...and every time Flaubert gives her something that should satisfy her, she balks and it doesn't. To me she represents the death of idealism in youth.

JPK, on 17 September 2025 - 04:02 PM, said:

It's also interesting reading this with an eye on the prose. Seeing how it really mirrors Emma's mental state and how it tends to be very drab when she's depressed but really opens up when she's going through one of her manic episodes affairs.

Yeah, Flaubert is really adept at showing us how Emma sees the world through art and romance to the point where the prose mimics those things....but Emma presented with something akin to it, she loses interest and plunges herself back into depression.

[JPK]

You make some really good points about Emma. I'd missed the aspect of her being karma for Charles's previous marriage. I just couldn't tell if I actually hate Emma because of who she is or because of a bias I personally have about adultery.

Spoiler

Her frustration about just wanting to bask in the aftermath of her affair with Leon while Charles and his mother are grieving the death of his father just rips at me.

.

I guess I'm trying to see if there's a read where her circumstances can justify the shitty person she is and the bad choices she makes like with Lydia in PRIDE AND PREJUDICE.

[QuickTidal]

JPK, on 17 September 2025 - 05:59 PM, said:

I just couldn't tell if I actually hate Emma because of who she is or because of a bias I personally have about adultery.

The French, especially the French of Flaubert's day didn't think Adultery was that bad (it's present in The d'artagnan romances as well and just feels "normal" there too), so I think it's more about her being constantly given life things that should satisfy her...but they never do. Like Leon...she just lets him leave to go off and live his life, despite being infatuated with him...the chase feels romantic to her, the nuts and bolts of relationships feel boring to her.

JPK, on 17 September 2025 - 05:59 PM, said:

Lydia in PRIDE AND PREJUDICE.

Indeed. Another commentary on the starry-eyed idealism of youthful belief in romance is torn asunder...but where Austen has Lydia fully realize her mistakes and accept they were her own stupidity, Flaubert makes sure Emma simply can't even though she's given ample opportunities to.

[worry]

Got nothing smart to say, but do any of y'all ever pronounce his name "Flo-bert"? Like gogurt.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 17 September 2025 - 08:22 PM, said:

Got nothing smart to say, but do any of y'all ever pronounce his name "Flo-bert"? Like gogurt.

Beaux + vary --- so beautiful, so various, so nu?... Or perhaps in French it sounds nothing like "Beaux" (to a native speaker, that is).

Bit of a tangent, but yesterday I read an interesting reference to Flaubert (and implicitly to Mme Bovary especially):

Quote

Stein herself insisted that Tender Buttons was entirely "realistic" in the tradition of Gustave Flaubert. "I used to take objects on a table, like a tumbler or any kind of object and try to get the picture of it clear and separate in my mind and create a word relationship between the word and the things seen," she recalls in "A Transatlantic Interview—1946" with Robert Bartlett Haas. What she no doubt means is that reference remains central to her project even if representation does not. Unlike her contemporaries (Eliot, Pound, Moore), she does not give us an image, however fractured, of a carafe on a table; rather, she forces us to reconsider how language actually constructs the world we know.

"Do not forget," Ludwig Wittgenstein observed, "that a poem, even though it is composed in the language of information, is not used in the language-game of giving information." Stein's poems illustrate this aphorism at every turn: she takes ordinary language—the "language of information"— and makes it strange, forcing us to be acutely aware of the way words work. Here, for example, is the first of the "Objects" in Tender Buttons, "A Carafe, That is a Blind Glass":

A kind in glass and a cousin, a spectacle and nothing strange a single hurt color and an arrangement in a system to pointing. All this and not ordinary, not unordered in not resembling. The difference is spreading.

https://poets.org/te...-gertrude-stein

A stein of beer in a cart of oxen
yoked to the slow revolutions of the sun...
which looked at close up would be
too unimaginably energetic for us to see.
So too each object in its quantum forms
as quantum foam, or stranger undulations...
with microscopic black holes passing through and waving
like puns in brains.

Or the way Flaubert describes a boring
hat as if it were a glittering whirlwind...

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: Yesterday, 09:09 PM