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Jhistal/forge thoughts Theories, thoughts, future

#1 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 08 April 2023 - 08:41 PM

Spoilers below









So this is the 4th book and probably the biggest in terms deviation from the main series. One of the criticisms of ICE previously has been he does well with characters and settings that don't have a fleshed out history as he's better at building his own world.

In terms of initial thoughts-

The jhistal cult- the politicking showing the rise to power was interesting. I did find the high priestess fleeing then getting captured twice a bit long winded. There also wasn't much of a focus on the mechanics of the jhistal cult either, which has been built as a dreaded cult stemming from the nameless ones. The Bugg cameo was good but he seems to leave his imprisonment then take working an undertakers in Lether in quick sucesion to meet Tehol. Also I didn't find there was much of a reveal when the crate was found, I was expecting a bit more. Rel is clearly going to be established in 7C, and there's mention of him having contacts there, so will appear in the next book and the suggestion he brought down his own cult by providing information is interesting, though it may have been opportunistic. Given what we know in the god is not willing he seems to be a pretty efficient ruler but its likely the witness trilogy will tie in with the late empire bits we've had inferred in the past.


The andii- this was a strange plot and the introduction of feral was interesting. I can't recall her involvement before now (maybe one of the assasin party in gotm?) so perhaps she'll be fleshed out going forward. The epilogue to the God is not willing makes reference to Ferals challenge in Darujhistan. The andii seem to have been living on moonspawn very high up and not involved in some time. I would like an answer to toppers parentage. There seems to be some sort of incitement of kellenved vs the elder races which may be the draw of luring the andii back to the world, there is a reference to moonspawn withdrawing above quon tali. Rake gives this speech about what would he actually be protecting with the Andii in the clouds in later books, about protecting a particular point of view rather than them actually being involved, so it's interesting to maybe see the bones of this.

The KCCM hoverkeep- this I found to be the worst plot unfortunately. The fact the KCCM appear here and then dujek and thousands of veterans had fought the KCCM and kell hunters, and this is never mentioned, is a heavy retcon from MOI. The plotline with the broken jaghut suffering an offence didn't really wash with me (there was also a timeline issue as he alleges this happened before the shipwrecked crew were born but we see this in DL maybe 10-15 years prior) and the motivations and mechanics of him superseding a hibernating hive of KCCM was underdeveloped. This long plot I found clashed with alot of established lore, which meant I found it difficult to get into and the fact a KCCM hive is in the heart of the empires mainland under the care of the Jheck was a bit of a reach. The actual plot and seeing the inside of a KCCM keep was interesting but again we don't actually know anymore, and I don't think it was explained why the kell hunters were ill or whether that was why they were in hibernation ( was there more to this point?)

They also completely side step the Korel campaign but I guess the bones of that we know from stone wielder.

Crimson guard- I don't feel like this added a huge amount, especially with the overlap with the old guard. There is clearly a divide in the guard but I don't feel like a huge amount was added. I was surprised they killed off haraj (sp) from KR but other than that not a huge amount added.

Aren champion- again I found this plot a bit light. Its essentially a guy who can't get his boat fixed and fills his time fighting people on the beach. The next book is set up for the 7 cities campaign so he will clearly be a surgen ress (yghatan champion who temper fights) type of figure with the champions culture still being prevalent. This should be interesting going forward and I think the campaign for genabackis is announced in the gotm prologue with ICE saying his ascendancy books will go up to the siege of pale so its likely he'll show up again
We've obviously got NOK and the northern Genabackis bits have been touched upon previously so it covers the meat of it.

Apologies for the above being a bit scattered. I have read the ascendancy books in the past, not enjoyed them for small discrepancies of the lore but enjoyed them upon reread for what they are. However I feel like this one can't be explained away and I found it jarring. I hope people enjoyed it however and I am looking forward to the 7C campaign in the next book.

I have written this on my phone so apologies for any errors. We didn't have a thread other than spoiler guides and waiting for it to come out so this is just to get the ball rolling.

This post has been edited by tiam: 09 April 2023 - 12:13 PM

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#2 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 11 April 2023 - 01:39 PM

I finished it over the weekend and want to digest it a bit more before posting my thoughts but to be honest, I had a similar experience to you. It was a decent read but there were some issues...


Reading the KCCM storyline just threw me due to the retcon. It might be a totally minor point all things considered but if you are going to retcon anything, you don't retcon details in MoI.


I thought Feral's conclusion at the end was totally forced too. How you figure Kellanved's actions are a pogrom against the Elder races just didn't wash. You'd think Rake would be more savvy than to accept that.


Am I right in thinking too that the conclusion of the Shi'gal story was that they simply lowered a roof to hide away and protect the control room after getting blasted? I thought they would be getting hunted down during their escape but they just have a jaunter to the exit. I was left thinking what, that was it?!!?


On a positive, anything to do with Tayschrenn in the book was epic, I loved his development...


But aye, was a strange book...

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#3 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 13 April 2023 - 05:02 PM

 champ, on 11 April 2023 - 01:39 PM, said:

I finished it over the weekend and want to digest it a bit more before posting my thoughts but to be honest, I had a similar experience to you. It was a decent read but there were some issues...


Reading the KCCM storyline just threw me due to the retcon. It might be a totally minor point all things considered but if you are going to retcon anything, you don't retcon details in MoI.


I thought Feral's conclusion at the end was totally forced too. How you figure Kellanved's actions are a pogrom against the Elder races just didn't wash. You'd think Rake would be more savvy than to accept that.


Am I right in thinking too that the conclusion of the Shi'gal story was that they simply lowered a roof to hide away and protect the control room after getting blasted? I thought they would be getting hunted down during their escape but they just have a jaunter to the exit. I was left thinking what, that was it?!!?


On a positive, anything to do with Tayschrenn in the book was epic, I loved his development...


But aye, was a strange book...


Yes we know that Rake clashed with the empire on quon but withdrew unexpectedly. If its being built as an elder vs new powers, I agree its not done with any real basis, to me at least.

I can see abyss read through also comments on the MOI KCCM retcon as well and seems to share the same thoughts. Your right the Shigaal seems to come awake, close the doors to stop the hoverkeep and Tays keeps them safe from the wave.

It also means that the Matrons still alive meaning-
-one matron only alive in the present day due to Morn rift and escaping the barrow. Dies in MOI
- the other in the Kolanse/Lether backwater. Dies in TCG
- this matron 'hybernating' smack bang in the empires heartland.


Agree with Tays plotline, do we ever get a reason he is immune to the Vitr? I thought his development does clash slightly with Tays from GOTM though tbf Dujek provides a different view of Laseen and Tays in MOI.
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Posted 13 April 2023 - 06:36 PM

I think that final conversation between Feral and Rake bothered me as much as the MoI retcon if ICE continues that angle.


She states that ST has mastered or allied with the Hounds and T'lan and then meddled with a KCCM keep... how does that then lead to ST wanting to wipe out the Elder races including the Andii?


Plus it felt rushed, that was the conclusion Feral took from one run-in with the group in the keep? I just hope Rake goes with that she is batshit and something else happens... that he doesn't get involved against the Empire using this story track as the reason - ST vs Elder races.


After Singer just sort of died without really knowing anything about him, I thought the Shi'gal would turn out to the the big bad of the endgame but aye, nope. I think the Shi'gal just went and made a cup of tea...


Re Tays and the Vitr, I cannot remember the specifics tbh, I just remember connecting it with the Azath/Azathani in those books, it has been a while. In this book when Nightchill talks about Chaos and it having the possibility to be anything including creation, I wasn't sure if that was connected with the Vitr, it made me think of it anyway...


I am wondering if this series is leading to the Chaining involving ST/Cots/Dassem etc... I hope it is...


Edit


Loved the tease with Tays and him having more "paths" open to him! More Malazan peeps please, less random shit.

This post has been edited by champ: 13 April 2023 - 06:46 PM

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#5 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 13 April 2023 - 08:12 PM

 champ, on 13 April 2023 - 06:36 PM, said:

I think that final conversation between Feral and Rake bothered me as much as the MoI retcon if ICE continues that angle.


She states that ST has mastered or allied with the Hounds and T'lan and then meddled with a KCCM keep... how does that then lead to ST wanting to wipe out the Elder races including the Andii?


Plus it felt rushed, that was the conclusion Feral took from one run-in with the group in the keep? I just hope Rake goes with that she is batshit and something else happens... that he doesn't get involved against the Empire using this story track as the reason - ST vs Elder races.


After Singer just sort of died without really knowing anything about him, I thought the Shi'gal would turn out to the the big bad of the endgame but aye, nope. I think the Shi'gal just went and made a cup of tea...


Re Tays and the Vitr, I cannot remember the specifics tbh, I just remember connecting it with the Azath/Azathani in those books, it has been a while. In this book when Nightchill talks about Chaos and it having the possibility to be anything including creation, I wasn't sure if that was connected with the Vitr, it made me think of it anyway...


I am wondering if this series is leading to the Chaining involving ST/Cots/Dassem etc... I hope it is...


Edit


Loved the tease with Tays and him having more "paths" open to him! More Malazan peeps please, less random shit.


Abyss has raised a point on his initial thoughts thread, does Nightchill look to manipulate the Empire into a conflict with the Andii and Rake? It would certainly explain her involvement in the Empire and if the ascendancy books go up to Pale then it might show the clear link? Training up Tays to thinking he can take on Moonspawn. Motivations for Rake are a bit looser as you say.

Regarding Singer, doesn't nightchill mention that he is Rhuargh or whatever the name of the broken Jaghut who served the southern Kings in the previous books is called? So there is at least some foreshadowing.

There's a reference to him doing this to avenge a previous insult and they all seemed surprised the hoverkeep went north rather than south, which suggests south to be the intended route.

Singer does say it in answer to an insult before the shipwrecked mage was born, which, if its relates to the interactions in previous books doesn't tally up with the timeline. If it relates to a previous unnamed insult then the motivations are even further afield for us to understand.

EDIT- just looked it up, yes it's Juage not Rhuargh. Nightchill finds him on P317 and names him. He is the broken Jaghut serving Chulalorn 3rd/4th in Dancer's Lament who freezes the lake. He's the reason the Imass sense Omtose Phellack in Li Heng and take it over by default.

His story was that he was 'enslaved' by chulalorn 3rd and served him but this was pretend servitude so doesn't seem a motivation to wipe out the southern kingdoms. It seems more likely to relate to the previous books in which kel/dancer/shalmanat all knock him about.

Interestingly his plot does link to a potential Rake motovation. Juage says to Kel and Dancer that the son of darkness does not want shadow reclaimed.

So therefore Ferals point about the Imass, first throne, KCCM etc indicating an attack on the Elder powers doesn't wash but if Rake sees all this, then thinks they want to sieze the Throne of Shadow, that might get him involved.

Perhaps going forward Rake and Kel come to an agreement over shadow remaining unclaimed, which is why Rake withdraws from Quon but after his supposed death Rake doesn't back down at Pale.

I have typed this on my phone, apologies if the formatting is off.

This post has been edited by tiam: 13 April 2023 - 08:41 PM

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#6 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 13 April 2023 - 09:40 PM

Aye, Juage,when Nightchill said his name I didn't recognise him so good shout. I'd forgotten that he appeared before so fair play there.


On one hand, I could see that happening with the manipulation but I don't really know how much influence Nightchill will ultimately have on ST/Cots. The "You Malazans" comment was interesting, not sure whether it was a tease confirming she's not fully on board for their cause or for new readers keeping her mysterious.


Regards to Rakes motivations, it would make more sense if it stems from the Shadow interactions. He doesn't want a mortal empire also ruling Shadow and half the world.

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#7 User is offline   I know Jhek Shit 

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Posted 14 April 2023 - 10:09 AM

Agree with everything you said pretty much. The book felt wierd, and I'd say one of the main themes of the story is 'repetition or delay'. Not just Gianna getting kidnapped a third time but also sailing this way and that after maguffins. Tays waking up on a cot with a headache a billion times. Going into the keep, then out again, then back in. The Guard deciding to go North about 6 times. Gianna again, in the later phase of her story, can't stop going to sleep before doing something important the next day (trust me, keep an eye out on reread). It felt like he was struggling to make the timelines match up.

Bugg was fun, Tays develoment a bit simple but okay, and seeing all these characters cross paths is enticing in itself but can I honestly say there were any properly cool moments? One or two maybe but I'm not sure I felt anything.

Also if i had a nickel for every Malazan book that contained the looming threat of a giant wave...I'd have two nickels. But it's weird that it happened twice!

I will say Kellanved was very Kellanved-y in this and I love that. When these prequel books started I wasn't sure we needed to see how Darth Vader became Darth Vader, so to speak, as that kind of thing rarely satisfies. But seeing Kel, Dancer and Dassem in their prime is great and I want it.
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Posted 14 April 2023 - 03:42 PM

View PostI know Jhek Shit, on 14 April 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Agree with everything you said pretty much. The book felt wierd, and I'd say one of the main themes of the story is 'repetition or delay'. Not just Gianna getting kidnapped a third time but also sailing this way and that after maguffins. Tays waking up on a cot with a headache a billion times. Going into the keep, then out again, then back in. The Guard deciding to go North about 6 times. Gianna again, in the later phase of her story, can't stop going to sleep before doing something important the next day (trust me, keep an eye out on reread). It felt like he was struggling to make the timelines match up.



Agreed with your points, there certainly was repetition. I really didn't care for the Gianna story, the only cool parts were when she was wreck diving, getting saved by the children and the Bugg scene.


In a way I feel sorry for ICE, it cannot be easy fitting a story into an established timeline whilst still trying to keep it unique and fresh.


View PostI know Jhek Shit, on 14 April 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Bugg was fun, Tays develoment a bit simple but okay, and seeing all these characters cross paths is enticing in itself but can I honestly say there were any properly cool moments? One or two maybe but I'm not sure I felt anything.



Aye as above, I enjoyed the Bugg scene, did we learn why he was trapped? I am guessing the worshippers fault? Now I think about it, I cannot remember any specifics there.


Towards the end when shit starts to hit the fan, I thought we would get a true convergence free for all. We had…


Malazans – Dassem / Tays / Dancer
CG –Blues / Gwynn / Jacinth / Black
Andii – Feral
KCCM – Shi'gal
Jaghut – Juage


But it just fizzled out.


There were some cool moments, I don't want to be only negative here. Tays and ST were the MVP followed by Dancer and Cartheron. That is how it should be.


ST had me cracked up with his non-committal.


Tays full development, from not understanding true power, to getting his ass handed to him by the Kell, to caring for his troops and blasting the F out of the next Kell to opening himself up to more paths now. His "stretching" very much echoed QB vs Icarium where he broke beyond his known limits…


Endest commentary on Tays. Then his coming together with Feral… Though you make a good point, instead of getting to see the action, we only hear about it and then have Tays waking up… missed opportunity there.


The exasperation between Dancer and Cartheron over ST had me amused too. Some great interactions there.


Dancers rush to Ullara too, gave me the feels as did any seen between those two.


The line from Dujek to Tays about there only being one Sword had me creased too.


View PostI know Jhek Shit, on 14 April 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Also if i had a nickel for every Malazan book that contained the looming threat of a giant wave...I'd have two nickels. But it's weird that it happened twice!



This was unfortunate. Both SE and ICE in their latest books using a big ass wave… it made me think of Mark Lawrence where he likes to drop lakes of water on people…


View PostI know Jhek Shit, on 14 April 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

I will say Kellanved was very Kellanved-y in this and I love that. When these prequel books started I wasn't sure we needed to see how Darth Vader became Darth Vader, so to speak, as that kind of thing rarely satisfies. But seeing Kel, Dancer and Dassem in their prime is great and I want it.



This! I posted somewhere else. It is reading about the Malazans that makes this prequel series special. More ST / Dancer / Tays and Dassem please. Less random shit…

This post has been edited by champ: 14 April 2023 - 03:45 PM

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#9 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 07:12 PM

Regarding bugg being trapped your right it isn't clear. I find ICE has this alot where you have a book based on something specific but it isn't really confirmed, like with Stonewielder.

In terms of the Jhistal cult it seems like they trapped Mael to keep his 'gift' he gave to the people that originally lived there. How they did it was probably in line with how the Errant draws him in and keeps him trapped in Reapers Gale, where something was voluntarily consecrated and that draws him in but they don't let him out. I think in RG it was a former legitimate temple so I would think that, though I would have liked more transparency around it. Its also hinted the Twisted is more than it seems in both the blurb and the book but that didn't go anywhere either.

I was also waiting for the original inhabitants to have a wider meaning. My theory, with all this mention of dark hair, was that they would be some sort of Tiste offshoot that were Maels favourite, and after they lost their land to invaders Mael gave them a realm and they became the Storm Riders.

We know the Storm riders are some from of Andii offshoot from previous books so thought that with the focus on the wave etc would have been a nice tie but not one that's too jarring like the KCCM.

This post has been edited by tiam: 18 April 2023 - 07:13 PM

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 09:39 PM

You could have a point with regards to how Bugg was held there as significance was made of Gianna "offering' her food and him placing it on the alter for later.That would break the chain if the last offering was to hold him there,


I'd wondered that with the children with mention of a connection to the old blood too... which old blood?!


Also I did laugh with the Twisted at the end where the nacht was actually said to be a demon lord. I think it was on the Twisted anyway.


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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:00 AM

 tiam, on 18 April 2023 - 07:12 PM, said:


I was also waiting for the original inhabitants to have a wider meaning. My theory, with all this mention of dark hair, was that they would be some sort of Tiste offshoot that were Maels favourite, and after they lost their land to invaders Mael gave them a realm and they became the Storm Riders.



This is great, wish he'd done that.

Not every mystery of the world needs to be explored and explained, but I'd rather finally know what the Stormriders are about than this new retcon KCCM mountain.
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Posted 19 April 2023 - 01:55 PM

 champ, on 18 April 2023 - 09:39 PM, said:

You could have a point with regards to how Bugg was held there as significance was made of Gianna "offering' her food and him placing it on the alter for later.That would break the chain if the last offering was to hold him there,


I'd wondered that with the children with mention of a connection to the old blood too... which old blood?!


Also I did laugh with the Twisted at the end where the nacht was actually said to be a demon lord. I think it was on the Twisted anyway.



Yes I think it's only Mael we've seen be imprisoned in this fashion, though tbf we see him potentially the most out of the blood worshipper gods. It seems like voluntary worship holds the power rather than the elder gods being imprisoned. We know that blood forestalls the Storm Riders for example who are elder in some fashion perhaps, but we don't get alot.

In terms of the old blood I think that related to the original Falari inhabitants which seem to be human. I think it's mentioned in a number of previous books that the Red haired fulani are actually invaders from Strike Island and the original inhabitants, those favoured by Mael, had dark hair. I would have liked this expanded on as they seemed to go through alot for the Gianna plotline but when it looks like she won't co-operate they look to the dark haired children as that might work. If so why was Gianna so special? She seemed to be a rudimentary mage but nothing special maybe her blood was purer and therefore more effective? Again questions.


 I know Jhek Shit, on 19 April 2023 - 07:00 AM, said:

 tiam, on 18 April 2023 - 07:12 PM, said:


I was also waiting for the original inhabitants to have a wider meaning. My theory, with all this mention of dark hair, was that they would be some sort of Tiste offshoot that were Maels favourite, and after they lost their land to invaders Mael gave them a realm and they became the Storm Riders.



This is great, wish he'd done that.

Not every mystery of the world needs to be explored and explained, but I'd rather finally know what the Stormriders are about than this new retcon KCCM mountain.


Agreed and this is often the problem with supplementary books after the main arc they sort of fill in the grey areas a bit too much. However this one I don't think we're any closer to what was special about the Jhistal cult or why the KCCM appeared. It could be retconned if just the CGrd and dassem and Co saw it was a KCCM keep but there was clashes with the main force and Kell hunters

This post has been edited by tiam: 19 April 2023 - 01:56 PM

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Posted 25 April 2023 - 05:30 PM

View Posttiam, on 19 April 2023 - 01:55 PM, said:

View Postchamp, on 18 April 2023 - 09:39 PM, said:

You could have a point with regards to how Bugg was held there as significance was made of Gianna "offering' her food and him placing it on the alter for later.That would break the chain if the last offering was to hold him there,


I'd wondered that with the children with mention of a connection to the old blood too... which old blood?!


Also I did laugh with the Twisted at the end where the nacht was actually said to be a demon lord. I think it was on the Twisted anyway.



Yes I think it's only Mael we've seen be imprisoned in this fashion, though tbf we see him potentially the most out of the blood worshipper gods. It seems like voluntary worship holds the power rather than the elder gods being imprisoned. We know that blood forestalls the Storm Riders for example who are elder in some fashion perhaps, but we don't get alot.

In terms of the old blood I think that related to the original Falari inhabitants which seem to be human. I think it's mentioned in a number of previous books that the Red haired fulani are actually invaders from Strike Island and the original inhabitants, those favoured by Mael, had dark hair. I would have liked this expanded on as they seemed to go through alot for the Gianna plotline but when it looks like she won't co-operate they look to the dark haired children as that might work. If so why was Gianna so special? She seemed to be a rudimentary mage but nothing special maybe her blood was purer and therefore more effective? Again questions.


View PostI know Jhek Shit, on 19 April 2023 - 07:00 AM, said:

View Posttiam, on 18 April 2023 - 07:12 PM, said:

I was also waiting for the original inhabitants to have a wider meaning. My theory, with all this mention of dark hair, was that they would be some sort of Tiste offshoot that were Maels favourite, and after they lost their land to invaders Mael gave them a realm and they became the Storm Riders.



This is great, wish he'd done that.

Not every mystery of the world needs to be explored and explained, but I'd rather finally know what the Stormriders are about than this new retcon KCCM mountain.


Agreed and this is often the problem with supplementary books after the main arc they sort of fill in the grey areas a bit too much. However this one I don't think we're any closer to what was special about the Jhistal cult or why the KCCM appeared. It could be retconned if just the CGrd and dassem and Co saw it was a KCCM keep but there was clashes with the main force and Kell hunters


The special thing about the Jhistal cult was that it had managed to imprison its own god and force him to work for them for a long long time. Exactly how that happened isn't really important (tho it is interesting).

The 'old blood' thing is very vague. With only dark hair and an affinity for Ruse to go on, we really don't have much to work with. Andii blood could explain the hair but not the affinity.... if anything it contradicts, Ruse being a newer warren without the connections to Elder Light/Shadow/Dark we see w Meanas, Thyr, Rashan, Mokra, etc. We got nothing to suggest any link to the Stormriders as far as i can recall.
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#14 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 25 April 2023 - 09:32 PM

Your right in that it doesn't matter how they did it I was just thinking the only comparison we have is Mael getting trapped in RG. I would have liked a bit more on how and what makes the Jhistal cult unique in their ability to do it, maybe because Mael is the last Elder God active for blood sacrifice?

As for the Stormriders your right no real link other than the water theme, maels chosen and they're some sort of Andii offshoot so more of a crazy theory than anything. I thought maybe they could have been unaligned Tiste now we kbow from FoD it's a bit less clear cut. Even Andii with MD turned away would sort of fit but again there's no mention of skin colour issues so just a nice idea for a link

This post has been edited by tiam: 25 April 2023 - 09:34 PM

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Posted 26 April 2023 - 01:30 PM

We could likely assume whatever they did to bind Mael was suitably horrible that it left him ready to give up godhood once he escaped. What's telling is that while the cult thinks a blood sacrifice is required to invoke the Jhistal wave, it's clear from Gianna's use that that was a false practice they followed. Likely it's just High Mage level Ruse with some belief as support... by the time Gianna borderline accidentally sumons the wave at the finale, she's been repeatedly told people are counting on her.


There's that scene in RCG where he and Mallick have a final parting of ways, but otherwise he's clearly quite done w the whole cult of worshippers thing.

Over in Leth he's very reluctant when Tehol prompts the refugees to start worshipping him (but not completely opposed either).
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#16 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 01:06 PM

Literally just finished the book and read a few of them comments in this thread. I will also take a few days to process and read posts but just a couple of quick things - I agree with it all just sorta fizzling out. What was each bit for.

Also, the whole Haraj thing. Wasn't he even named Fingers in a typo in the last book, or one of the PtA so far? I was convinced he was Fingers even before that but that seemed to cement it. Then he was explained as dead. Kept expecting a reunion. Strange wee storyline.

Do we know that the Stormriders are specifically an Andii offshoot, I only recall it being mentioned they were Tiste like, not specifically Andii.

Also also, the Jhistal was literally just the big wave? Or the spell that makes the big wave? Even right up until near the very end I was expecting and hoping it would be the crazy sea creature demon God thing from Midnight Tides. What with being related to Mael and all.

This post has been edited by Keysi: 14 May 2023 - 01:25 PM

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#17 User is offline   flea 

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Posted 14 May 2023 - 06:19 PM

About to start this. Is there a good location for summaries of the previous books in the series?
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#18 User is offline   sigpig 

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Posted 23 June 2023 - 11:30 PM

Finished this, and am re-reading the Novels. In RCG, Rel and Mael have a rather interesting discussion.The comment about "how many intestines of the innocents need be spilt" (I assume that LOTS of innocent "old blood" was spilled by the cult in order to trap Mael in the first place) piqued my interest.
I have to be honest here, I like SE more than ICE. That being said, I feel as if this is his worst work in the Malazan universe. I finished a Malazon novel in about two days - that's how easy it was for me to read. It was way too predictible, way too repetitive (as stated before), and WAY too retconned. Seriously, Tays had battled KCCM before seeing them at Coral.

The feeling I got after completing the book is that it felt rushed and incomplete. The Tays storyline came directly from Warcraft 3 with him levelling-up after every encounter. Frankly, the KCCM hovervolcano could have been dealt with by pointing at it and saying to Tool "There be Jaghut" and letting them go. Plot over, no Malazan lives lost.
Kel/Dancer/Crust were great. Rel is a complete asshat, but we already knew that.

I'm sure I'll have some more thoughts later.

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