Malazan Empire: Who Is That Dragon! - Malazan Empire

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Who Is That Dragon!

#81 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 11:05 PM

The three dragons have not been identified as hetan says, but ochre coloured suggests that they are possibly linked to the liosan... osserc is lost until HoC, so my money is on the three being menandore, sukhul and rud elalle, but that could be completely wrong.
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Posted 14 November 2005 - 07:52 AM

Tiste Simeon said:

Do you think that Dujek and co will be coming to Letheras now that "the way is open" as it were? It is possible you have to admit... I find it quite sad that BH might be the last time we say QB and them... ;)


but why should it be the last time? they're perfectly capable of taking a ship aren't they? and not all of Genebackis is part of the Malazan empire yet is it?
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Posted 14 November 2005 - 10:46 AM

aplogies for posting after myself... ;)

Just thought of another candidate for :

Gate - rages with wild fire... and she is on the draconic tree

Olar Ethil...her warren is tellas isn't it? :Erm:

I'm sure someone's posted this before?
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#84 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 09:08 PM

But how??? was'nt she trooping around with the logross or something and I thought if shes the undead dragon she shows up everywhere I.e. Mhybes dreams, pust place, warren of fire etc.

If this be true she already ruled out by being undead and living it up:D
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Posted 15 November 2005 - 08:08 AM

umm.. how does that prevent her being in the Hold of Dragons?

bearing in mind it is only a whacky theory.. hmm.. perhaps I should post it in that thread? ;)
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#86 User is offline   Tes'thesula 

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Posted 15 November 2005 - 10:29 AM

thats interesting because she was a path through to the liosan warren for the the boat kulp and co. were on...if i remember correctly
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#87 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 12:21 PM

Hetan said:

umm.. how does that prevent her being in the Hold of Dragons?

bearing in mind it is only a whacky theory.. hmm.. perhaps I should post it in that thread? ;)


am sorry I misread what u said or I read it out of context or something...neway Het I guess if not her who? She's as good a candidate as any.

Them three dragons could be draconian soletaken nameless ones. Just another theory based on their knowledge on how to use the gates.
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#88 User is offline   S Ruin 

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 12:31 PM

I actually agree with you hetan.

I think Olar Ethil is the gate as described in the prophecies because of he 2 points below:

1) When Baudin and Felsin are looking at the undead dragon in DG on the boat - the dragon opened an ancient warren that blazed with "bronze fire"

2) One of the last scenes in DG was Isakaral Pust and his spider wife looking up at the undead dragon and Isakaral says something loke this (cannot remember the exact quote) "You are guarding the true gate"
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#89 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 03:47 PM

S Ruin said:

2) One of the last scenes in DG was Isakaral Pust and his spider wife looking up at the undead dragon and Isakaral says something loke this (cannot remember the exact quote) "You are guarding the true gate"


That last bit about the gate. Does that true gate also mean the gate to (an) ascendancy (??or path of hands??)
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#90 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:41 PM

Hetan said:

but why should it be the last time? they're perfectly capable of taking a ship aren't they? and not all of Genebackis is part of the Malazan empire yet is it?

Good point. I feel better now Hetan, Thanks! ;) And I like your theory re Olar Ethil etc.
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#91 User is offline   krupke 

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 09:17 AM

I think it is a complete stranger. It could be the Bonecaster looking for the missing T'lan imass but then by that time they know where they are
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#92 User is offline   Dolmen 2.0 

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:23 PM

I think it could be a nameless one soletaken...
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#93 User is offline   Onrack the breakable 

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 01:39 PM

Coldnight;42732 said:

I was just making my own otataral researches and found an interesting quotation for you:
"...Yes, my mother has told me - on the Otataral Isle, in the desert - that statue. Heboric, an entire island of otataral was created to contain that statue, to hold it prisoner. But you have given it a means to escape..."

There's nowhere written that otataral was created olny once and in the one place. Teblors have their own source. I mean that otataral dragon doesn't have to be connected to Otataral Island.



I thought on that same page (where Heboric and Leoric are talking about otataral) in answer to that opinion someone else says something like, "no, the otataral seems more a result of the cataclysmic arrival" or somesuch. The gist is that the otataral was created by the arrival of the giants as a natural phenemonom not that some god or whatever was just waiting for jade giants to appear so they could trap them with otataral.

Also, there was another ritual in the First Empire or somesuch where the ritual went ary and it tore a warren apart and created an island of otataral. I may be wrong on that. Just recalling from memory which is getting pretty hazy now that I'm back to reading Eddings Elder Gods while waiting for more Malazan Books of the Fallen from SE.

As for the dragon, it seems like a sort of elemental force like most dragons. Meaning if its not precisely an elder god, it can give one a pretty good fight for its life. Of course, like Scabby against 2 or more elder gods there isn't much chance of da dragon winning no matter how much he preeens, struts, and backstabs.

If anything, the otataral dragon would have some relationship with people who use otataral, like Toblaki, Tavore- with her otataral sword cum gauntlet now, and Kalam (was it really the deadhouse that is keeping him alive or the otataral dragon?). Much mystery there regarding the relationships and effects if any besides the physical. It was mentioned some places that otataral did different things to different people (if touched) and the Toblaki would lick otataral (blood oil) to go into a battle and raping rage, etc.
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#94 User is offline   paladin 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 02:11 AM

kind of on the same page as onrack, since dragons seem to be aspected, whats to say that otataral isnt just the product of otataral magic(perhaps with corresponding warren/hold/what-have-you since krul tied dragons to warrens)? perhaps its origin/creation method is lost, but it still has its magical capabilities.

to me, the otataral was placed there to encase the jade, so that would mean that it would have to have been fashioned in some way. that speaks of magic, either through imbuing, enchantment, or directly creating it through magic.
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#95 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 02:18 AM

From what we know of Otataral it doesn't seem correct to phrase in terms of "creating" or "fashioning". It's more of a natural reaction to large concentrations of magic. It's not placed by some agent, it is generated by a magic "overload" (for lack of a better word). I suppose it could be deliberately created by provoking some kind of magical disaster but that would be a bit extreme, and people capable of producing such a calamity would probably not want anything to do with Otataral in the first place.

All the examples of Otataral in the books are associated with some catastrophe (the Jade Giants falling, the battle of Laederon Plateau - source of Teblor blood-oil, the destruction of the First Human Empire, presumably there is Otataral on Korelri due to the Fall of the CG)

This also means it's a kind of anti-magic. It destroys magic, or at least non-Elder magic. So I wouldn't really classify it as "otataral magic" along with the other warrens.
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#96 User is offline   paladin 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 06:23 PM

yes, but it could be derived from elder magic itself.. the only thing we know is that it happens to be in situations where massive amounts of magic are used, and it may be a byproduct of that, but i dont see it as a "spontaneous" natural reaction.. something intelligent, i would think based on most happenings in the books, must induce it.

magic is chaos, the warrens/holds/etc were created to harness and/or control chaos, correct? otataral is another "control", and it seems that the controls we've seen so far have all been fashioned by something/someone of intelligence. it seems to be like a sheild-anvil of magic.

either way, its fun speculation. im not trying to say exactly what it is, but i don't think it's a purely natural occurrence/reaction.
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#97 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:03 PM

paladin;163235 said:

yes, but it could be derived from elder magic itself.. the only thing we know is that it happens to be in situations where massive amounts of magic are used, and it may be a byproduct of that, but i dont see it as a "spontaneous" natural reaction.. something intelligent, i would think based on most happenings in the books, must induce it.


It's a natural phenomenon. There's no intelligent agent that tracks magic use and says "too much here, lets produce some otataral".

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magic is chaos, the warrens/holds/etc were created to harness and/or control chaos, correct?


Maybe. Don't really know for sure.

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otataral is another "control", and it seems that the controls we've seen so far have all been fashioned by something/someone of intelligence. it seems to be like a sheild-anvil of magic.


Otataral may be a force of opposition for magic, but that does not require an intelligence to provide it. It could have just arisen as part of the natural order of things.

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either way, its fun speculation. im not trying to say exactly what it is, but i don't think it's a purely natural occurrence/reaction.


I do think it's natural, the only hint we've ever seen of anyone controlling it is the Otataral dragon being aspected to it. Apart from that it's a natural thing with no-one creating or controlling it.
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#98 User is offline   paladin 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:12 PM

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I do think it's natural, the only hint we've ever seen of anyone controlling it is the Otataral dragon being aspected to it. Apart from that it's a natural thing with no-one creating or controlling it.


That's the cincher for me

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It's a natural phenomenon. There's no intelligent agent that tracks magic use and says "too much here, lets produce some otataral".


There's also nothing saying, that I've seen, that it is created at the time of the catastrophes you spoke of.. An entity could have done this after the fact. "Oh crap! That jade giant is pretty dangerous, lets bury it so it can't be seen and wrap it in otataral so it's effects won't be felt." Enforcing order(which is nearly always related to something of intelligence in the series) on chaos(nature,chaotic jade magic crap)
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#99 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 07:36 PM

No, it's a reaction to magical calamities. I think the relevant character is Heboric mulling the origins of the O-Isle in DG. All the Otataral we know of is produced as the result of massive overdoses of magic. Which suggests it is a natural consequence of such events.
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#100 User is offline   paladin 

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 09:06 PM

do we know that it's produced or do we know that it's present?
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