[Slow Ben]

Gust, everyone else has said pretty much everything. I'll just add, you dont seem happy at all my friend. And life is way too damn short.

[Gust Hubb]

Briar King, on 17 August 2021 - 10:36 PM, said:

I'm still pissed off at the room that has been setup at his place.

You and me both man.

Slow Ben, on 18 August 2021 - 01:11 AM, said:

Gust, everyone else has said pretty much everything. I'll just add, you dont seem happy at all my friend. And life is way too damn short.

Way too short. It is why I have quit 3 jobs, each in less than a year's time, and why I was divorced the first time (and perhaps now a second). I have been listening a lot to Sharp Edges by Linkin Park, really feeling kinship with those who have to learn the hard way.



She digs herself deeper every day. Today (not yesterday) she asked me if I knew she would choose me over this other guy. I gave her the honest answer that I really didn't know. I still remember her angry reaction and denials when I told her that her job was sucking life out of our marriage; and that conversation was only a couple months ago.

I have started mentally packing, figuring out what I need to take with me when I leave (which fortunately shouldn't need more than a car-hitched u-haul trailer). Today also my ex managed to push out the custody court trial date (it was supposed to be next Monday), so there will be no timely resolution as to who gets primary custody of my boys. Now I am just waiting to see if I land a remote job, at which point I make my move to leave unless my wife does something to rescue the marriage. I have reached the inflection point, and it is going to take some impressive mathematics to redirect the new heading. But still, don't judge me if I extend my suffering in optimistic last ditch efforts. Just tonight feels like it has moved into prep for divorce.

[Morgoth]

Shit GH, you're approaching this in the right way I think. You've given her every opportunity to make amends and yet she refuses to take them. There's not much more you can do unless she changes her behaviour.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Not a single person here is going to judge you. I have nothing sensible to add that others haven't already stated eloquently, but I hope you find the best way forward for you to be happier, whatever that may look like.

[Gust Hubb]

Talking with a good friend and she has helped me reach an epiphany.

When I married Mrs. Hubb, I married a woman who was a year or two out from losing her infant daughter and fiancee in a fiery car wreck. I married a woman in a massive custody battle over her daughters. I married a woman turning her life around and rejoining the workforce to get her dream job as paramedic with the city of St. Louis. I married a woman in love who had so much to offer and try, a rebound from the nuclear winter of her tragedy.

Now I am married to a woman who has joint custody of her girls, working her dream job surrounded by people like her (some of who she loves like family or more). She has bought a nice home and has a relatively stable husband who takes care of the house and her children for her, freeing her to develop her new friendships. While things are currently financially rocky, she is not in debt and her bills are covered.

I am married to a woman who finds burden in balancing between all her responsibilities, friends, family, and wants. Whether she realizes it or not, she has reverted to her normal life course, and I was the serendipitous aberration. I don't belong with her, not this woman who has been in open marriages, is covered with tattoos and piercings, and lived in wild times with lots of sex, drugs, and rock and roll (yes literally). She has let me live vicariously and let me taste the variants of what she could have been and what she was (the photographer, the quiet romantic, the world traveler, the comic book nerd, etc). In a way, I guess I married above my station.

Rough times are here for her. She has to survive her covid lungs, burnout as her work uses her up ruthlessly, and all the typical troubles life throws at a person in finances, teenage daughters, and housework. And now divorce. I really hope she survives it with this other guy (or he is her bridge to staying sane). I still love her, I still think she is one of a kind, I still think she is a treasure. But she is also an elemental, free, unbound, needing to be what she is without restraints. She always runs a high risk of catching fire and being destroyed by her passions, but I guess in a way, that is who she is. I am an anchor, a steadying presence, a foundation. She is waves at sea, flitting magic, and the tornado ripping apart the world for its brief existence.

There is a Marshmello/Bastille song that I think will capture the flavor of my goodbye: Happier. I am the branch which carried her chrysalis. Now she is strong enough to take flight.

[champ]

No one deserves what she has put you through, Gust.

People have already covered what I would add to the conversation, I just want to wish you the best of luck moving forward. Stay strong and keep your head up.

[amphibian]

I uh don't get that kind of romantic read from this situation at all.

All I can go on is what you tell us, so this is limited to that. I think there might be some major trauma bonding happening - both with you and her and with her paramedic room haver. Neither traumatic situation for her has been dealt well with, which she tells you regularly with the "You didn't lose a kid, I did" stuff and with the burnout at her job. There's abdications of responsibility to some degree in her relationship to you, the kids, and likely with others too. My view is that she's going to run away from just about anything that's going to take work and/or throttling back her pleasure seeking ways because it is somehow less painful to lose relationships than it is to get back into a healthier place. You might have a need to see her as great or special in ways that you are not and you're contorting yourself in all kinds of ways to give her what she wants - to your detriment. What happens if you say "No" to her or say that she must care for the kids this night or take her insurance info and online arrange for therapy for the two of you?

I've seen this with a friend who is a social worker and her social worker friends. The daily awful stuff they deal with needs coping strategies, healthy or not healthy. Some people went into drugs and just kinda went on a slow rampage of breaking up every friendship and relationship they had. My friend had to tell her social worker friend that she couldn't rent her an apartment anymore (this was a few years ago, long before the pandemic) because it was getting bad.

I also caution you mightily about considering yourself beneath her or that you're only an anchor. You both chose each other and you are good enough for yourself and for those who need and want you. You're also more than an anchor or just the support staff to others. Sure, you can embrace those things, but every single person on this planet has multiple facets to themselves.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 18 August 2021 - 02:38 PM

[Gust Hubb]

Thank you Amph. I know I am valuable and more than an anchor. And I appreciate you calling me out for self-denigration. It's hard to not see yourself as a plain-Jane when next to such a brightly burning fire.

Yeah, reading over again, I do idolize her in many ways, the way she goes for what she wants, the self-confidence, and the vitality. Those same traits also control her to the point that she is a self-centered, pushy, hedonistic, stubborn, child-like asshole.

Part of what I am doing is trying to understand how I went from thinking we were soul-mates (fated to meet) to now seeing a borderline abusive relationship where I bend over backwards (as you have all pointed out) and she only gives small, grudging concessions. I have trouble not trying to put myself in someone else's shoes and seeing their perspective, often turning their ill-opinion of me back on myself.

At this point, I am most worried she will rip my emotions to shreds and hold me here with promises and grief. She is still strongly under the impression she loves me like nothing else and we will be together for life. This will shock her system and frankly I don't know what to expect, either complete shut down or desperate last ditch attempts to keep me. I can see both scenarios with great ease.

But I am actively preparing to leave now. I have downloaded divorce forms and began cleaning and organizing my stuff to determine what I need to pack and what I need to purchase to move. I am not sure how I should time everything, and I assume I need to wait on dropping the hammer until I have a solid job, good prospects for a new place to stay (searching for rentals), and hear back from my lawyer on how this will impact the custody case.

Any and all advice is welcome.

[HoosierDaddy]

Gust Hubb, on 18 August 2021 - 03:10 PM, said:

Thank you Amph. I know I am valuable and more than an anchor. And I appreciate you calling me out for self-denigration. It's hard to not see yourself as a plain-Jane when next to such a brightly burning fire.

Yeah, reading over again, I do idolize her in many ways, the way she goes for what she wants, the self-confidence, and the vitality. Those same traits also control her to the point that she is a self-centered, pushy, hedonistic, stubborn, child-like asshole.

Part of what I am doing is trying to understand how I went from thinking we were soul-mates (fated to meet) to now seeing a borderline abusive relationship where I bend over backwards (as you have all pointed out) and she only gives small, grudging concessions. I have trouble not trying to put myself in someone else's shoes and seeing their perspective, often turning their ill-opinion of me back on myself.

At this point, I am most worried she will rip my emotions to shreds and hold me here with promises and grief. She is still strongly under the impression she loves me like nothing else and we will be together for life. This will shock her system and frankly I don't know what to expect, either complete shut down or desperate last ditch attempts to keep me. I can see both scenarios with great ease.

But I am actively preparing to leave now. I have downloaded divorce forms and began cleaning and organizing my stuff to determine what I need to pack and what I need to purchase to move. I am not sure how I should time everything, and I assume I need to wait on dropping the hammer until I have a solid job, good prospects for a new place to stay (searching for rentals), and hear back from my lawyer on how this will impact the custody case.

Any and all advice is welcome.

Gust... she can only rip your emotions to shreds if you let her. And, from a very removed viewing of this picture... that is exactly what she'll try. She is using her emotional trauma to hold everyone else, but most especially you, hostage to her emotional well-being. While you took that on as part of the marriage, to hold up your end of the bargain, she is absolutely abdicating any of her end of the bargain. And if she has abdicated, there is no point in you holding on.

Don't know what else to say man, but I feel for you. You are not in the wrong here, and she will most likely try to manipulate this situation into making you think you are in the wrong. You are not. Everyone else here is telling you: YOU ARE NOT IN THE WRONG HERE.

But we can shout til we are blue in the face, it is you who needs to see it and I'm glad you are. However, you will have to prepare yourself for the emotional maelstrom to come. Leaving her will back her into a corner and she will use every inch of emotional trauma she has to manipulate you into doing what she wants so that she doesn't face that emptiness again.

This is something she either works through or doesn't, and it seems as though she's taken all the wrong lessons from what she has gone through. I'm so glad you are approaching the words selfish and manipulative, but you need to use those and not "pushy" and "self-centered". Selfish. Manipulative. That's abusive my friend.

[RACHEL]

Reading about this woman INFURIATES me for some reason. My opinion: she has 100% cheated on you by anyone's definition of sex. I can't remember how long ago it was but you posted about your relationship with her and how you were in a dark place mental health-wise. If I recall correctly the gist of your past post was this: my wife is at the best of times emotionally draining, resistant to help for her issues, distant, selfish, ect. but I love her, and when I am at a great place emotionally I can put up with it by doing everything so she can relax, but lately she has been even worse and I am also in a poor place mentally so I am really struggling right now. At the time I am pretty sure I posted that you needed to get out of the relationship. At that time I was convinced by your comments that she was cheating, and also a total asshole. Now I am 100% sure she is and has been cheating on you for some time. Let me make this very clear, she DID NOT FALL ASLEEP at his house when she went over there to talk, she had sex with him. She admitted that he loves her, and that she loves him, and that she has been hiding this for a year. You do not need sex or cheating defined to know that she cheated and had sex in every definition of those words. I am so sorry that she did this to you because you sound like a great and caring guy. I am going to be blunt and tell you that it sickens me a bit to hear you describe her in the glowing terms you used. You did not marry above your station, you married a brat. You met your current woman after being in a long term relationship that ended because she realized she was gay. Of course you felt like you were meant to be together, and that you were fated to be. That is how everyone feels at the beginning of a relationship, butterflies, and emotional highs. These feelings are multiplied by the length of time it has been since you last felt them. I am sure by the time things were ending with your first wife it was hard to remember all the highs you felt when you were first together. Add to this the fact that your current lady likes to escape her problems by finding things to keep her occupied, and she was escaping some pretty hellish loss when you met, and viola she seems magically vivacious, and you are experiencing new love butterflies and it seemed fate. She is not waves at sea, flitting magic, she is a selfish person who is lacking in the empathy department. She wants what she wants when she wants it. She works hard and plays hard because she sounds to me like the type of person that has to keep moving so reality, and dealing with things never has to set in. Trust me when I say that you are not dull or boring because you are not a party animal, or because you are only into monogamous relationships. There is nothing wrong or less than about you, and based on what you've said about her now and in the past, she doesn't sound like a free spirit she sounds like a person who only cares about herself and gets what she wants because she doesn't care who she hurts to get it. Everyone above said the same things way more politely but it just angered me to read your posts where you bash yourself and then idolize a person who is not worthy of it. Good luck with your divorce and I'm sorry that she did this to you.

[Gust Hubb]

Yeah HD and RACHEL, I see what you mean. I am really just going to blitz this thing and give her little to no time to react. That is why I am taking inventory, looking at boxes/tupperware tubs, writing up all the divorce documentation ahead of time, etc. I may stay with my sister or someone for a short time, but packing up everything would be relatively easy (no cameras in the back alley and she is not a neighborly person). Once I decide to broach the divorce, I will push through (but will definitely need you still shouting at me until you are blue in the face).

Other things in my favor include her already having someone else to turn to and even stay with (not that I will be occupying the house when I break the divorce news), her being swamped at work, and her being locked down by bills, her girls, the house, etc. She isn't going anywhere and my name (for all that I pay in bills) is really on nothing, not titles or deeds.

I am preparing to make this a quick strike with no time to negotiate or think. And I hope for the sake of her girls she can land on her feet.

[Lady Bliss]

Gust Hubb, on 18 August 2021 - 06:52 PM, said:

Yeah HD and RACHEL, I see what you mean. I am really just going to blitz this thing and give her little to no time to react. That is why I am taking inventory, looking at boxes/tupperware tubs, writing up all the divorce documentation ahead of time, etc. I may stay with my sister or someone for a short time, but packing up everything would be relatively easy (no cameras in the back alley and she is not a neighborly person). Once I decide to broach the divorce, I will push through (but will definitely need you still shouting at me until you are blue in the face).

Other things in my favor include her already having someone else to turn to and even stay with (not that I will be occupying the house when I break the divorce news), her being swamped at work, and her being locked down by bills, her girls, the house, etc. She isn't going anywhere and my name (for all that I pay in bills) is really on nothing, not titles or deeds.

I am preparing to make this a quick strike with no time to negotiate or think. And I hope for the sake of her girls she can land on her feet.

TBH, for the sake of the girls there is someone else that will take them.

[amphibian]

I urge a bit of caution in swinging from one end of "I see no faults in her" to "I will do things in a way that hurts her".

The job search is a high priority. Treating yourself with respect and compassion is too. Treating her kids, who've bonded with you, with respect and compassion is a wise move too. Yes, they're her responsibility, yet letting them know what is going on ("I'm having non-solvable relationship issues with your mother and I have to move out, I love you, I'm here for you, here's my contact info.") when it's time for you to move out will be a good thing to do. Keep your stuff shipshape for the custody hearing as well. Those kids are a huge priority for you, I know.

Also, I don't think it's wise for us to get into whether she had physical intimacy or not. What matters is that there's mutual intimacy of some kind with a third person that's happening in an understood to be monogamous relationship and an unwillingness to put a pause on or back off on that intimacy.

[Gust Hubb]

I am not really swinging into hurting-her mode. I actually don't want to do anything to spite or upset her. I am still cleaning the house, doing the laundry, etc. I am mostly just preparing to protect myself and run when and if things go down, which will happen after a secure job is established and I have better plans for moving. I also still don't think there was any penetrative affair and still think she earnestly wants to keep our relationship going. I am just at a different place along the way.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what to do with her girls. Her ex is a bear and seems protective. I will probably give them my phone number this week (since I take them to school and they have cell phones when with their father) under the pretext of having it to call me in an emergency. That way I won't hopefully trigger any backlash from papa-bear.

I also wanted to reassure that I am going to work closely with my lawyer to make sure I manage the best outcome for my boys in the custody hearing. If and when I move out, I will aim to be back in Denver where they are, which will simplify things and allow me to join in with their schooling. I think that will be the best scenario I can scrape together in the wake of a divorce.

Don't worry, I am not planning to go vindictive. I do still love my wife and this hurts a lot even thinking about it.

[Lady Bliss]

I don’t think Gust is vindictive at all just pragmatic in having an exit strategy. I would for sure let everyone know that you want to be a part of the girls lives and that you always will love them. Hopefully the wife and her ex see that there is nothing but good in that scenario for them, but it’s hard to know how people will react.

[Morgoth]

I was thinking I should have told you to get a lawyer, but here you are already better prepared than I was when I was in your position. There's not much to add beyond what's already been said by Amp and Rachel and HD. Just remember that we're all rooting for you, and that you're not the only one to have been caught up in something like this. It doesn't make you a fool, or blind. We all want to trust those we love, and see them in the best possible light.

Also, the success of a relationship is not measured by its length. It was a success when it was good, and that success is not diminished by what happened later. It's ending now and that seems very much to be the right outcome for you (and quite possibly her too in the long run), but it was not wasted time, though I imagine it might feel that way right now. It certainly did for me.

[Gust Hubb]

I want to start by thanking all of you so much. Rereading this thread and everyone's comments has kept me on course and sane. TL;DR below, there was a massive fight last night, she knows divorce is on the table, and she seems to want to fight for the marriage.


----Preamble----

So I faced a demon last night head on. Not intentionally mind you, but let's say the situation HD predicted came to pass in spectacular technicolor.

Before the explosion, my wife and I had just picked up her daughters from their first day of school. My wife had dinner plans with her girlfriends (childhood friends), so I was left to make dinner for myself and step-daughters. It was a nice evening with my step-daughters, talking to the youngest about school over a dinner of homemade beef stroganoff and then watching the latest Marvel What If... episode before their dad came back to pick them up to take them to their other home (we only get them from after school to 7 pm on Thursdays as part of the damn confusing custody arrangement with my wife's ex).

My wife stayed out until 9 pm and then came home. By then I was already in bed because I was flat out exhausted. And that is when things ignited. She once again started by asking if I knew she loved me and then following up by asking if I knew she loved me more than anyone else including this other guy. I answered yes and not sure. She asked me what I wanted her to do about this other guy and I said it all had to end. And that's when I brought up the fact it was more than just one friend with a hypothetically platonic love affair. I brought up her job.

Let me say this, the next hour or two were some of the most emotionally wringing, soul crushing I have experienced yet in this relationship. I am still untangling the whole experience my head this morning. But having this thread and having conversations with several of you outside of forum posts has provided me with the external memories and support I needed not to completely cave into self recriminations.

------The Fight------

I know if you have gotten past the initial TL;DR you are likely asking for details. What actually happened? Here are the takeways I have separated from the tangle of horrid memories.

• She sees me as someone who criticizes her from the outset without any gentle prelude into an issue. She states that my accusations make it hard for her to hear anything else I say after those initial blows.
• She completely disagrees with my assessment of her relationship with her daughters. She states she has always been a paramedic, even before they were born, and that life as it is represents something they are used to. Thus, when I bring up her being out on her youngest daughter's birthday or out last night after her daughters' first day of school, she feels those accusations assume the girls actually find those days truly significant and that her other gestures outside of those days (e.g. celebrating a birthday on a day before the actual day) aren't a good enough alternative.
• She reiterates that her job is her life, that she has always been doing it even when her and I first met. She does admit that the pandemic has escalated the time commitment, but that such escalation is nationwide and not specific to this current job as a first responder (which she started 2 years ago).
• She feels leaving her job would be devastating to her, asking what would she do without working. She thinks at least she would be restless and full of resentment. And she sees her current employer as perfectly equivalent with any other employer anywhere else during this pandemic (e.g. a job somewhere else would not change things as they currently stand, with her sucked into numerous overtimes, etc).
• She says she has already given me what I wanted in taking only 2 overtime shifts a month (started this month).
• She also says that even when I had bad jobs that took me to another state entirely or kept me late into the evening, she still never asked me to leave those jobs and instead weathered the rough times for me.
• As for her work friends, she stressed that I cannot provide her with everything she needs nor does she expect (or want) me to. She says because I have never tragically lost a child and because I don't regularly deal with work horrors like a 4 year old smeared across the highway, I cannot not provide the support she needs to process and get through these events. Her work friends can provide her with sympathetic, fully understanding support. She emphasized that such compartmentalization of dealing with her needs doesn't invalidate my priority or primary importance to her. She did drop the term that I am her anchor.
• As for the specific work friend for whom she feels love, she grew defensive saying she never slept with him and she has told me honestly of what the entire situation is with him. She further expounds that she always tells me where she is and doesn't hide where she goes or who she is with.
• She states that we both have changed from what we were when we were new lovers. She states we both ignore each other when she is home. She says she wants to spend more time with me, but I don't interact with her enough when she is around.
• She said I was an asshole.
• Overall, she says she always comes back to me, that she could have had an affair but she didn't, and that I am the most important thing to her in her life.

For my part, I took my comments to the next level, which is probably why she fought me so hard.

• I said that her job is killing her (she obviously strongly disagrees). I said that despite COVID sequelae harming her lungs, her job takes so much from her emotionally and physically that it is probably exacerbating the deterioration of her health. Moreover, the job is leaving very little of her for her family to hold onto.
• I did say she is a shitty parent at times in response to her saying I make her feel like a shitty parent. That was not well received. That was where the conversation was directed to her days absent from her daughters' lives, to which she rebutted that she talks to them on their phones over calls and text all the time.
• I said she needed to chose between her job and work friends and me, which of course she said was not fair. I backpedalled here to say that I had no concrete solution and that the binary of quit job or stay with job weren't the only two things on the table.
• I said I wish she had told me she wanted to leave my bad jobs (none of which lasted more than 10 months).

At the end of all this, she said she didn't want to be next to me in bed right then, implying I should leave. I stood (well laid) my ground here asking if she was planning to sleep, because I was. Eventually, she got up and left the house entirely and is still out as I write this post.

She now knows I have had plans to divorce her, and knows that it would take a very dramatic change to waylay that course. She asked me if we needed to separate for a time. And amusingly, she snidely brought up the couples counselor asking if I had found one yet,I and this morning I found her insurance card laying next to the computer.

-----Reflections and Summary-----

In the calmer morning, alone in the house, I can look back and see patterns.

First, she defends her actions and behavior above all else, rarely admitting wrong, and when she does, often admitting it as a shared wrong-doing between us to each other.

Second, she seems to have a lot of trouble getting past accusations to ask what the hurt person feels. This was poignantly demonstrated in the parenting fight, where she was confident the girls were fine and I persisted by saying what she thinks ought to be isn't necessarily what her girls actually feel. She believes that she has set the standard on special days such that a birthday can be celebrated at other times and does not require much specialness on the birthday itself if that specialness is provided on a separate day. I countered that regardless of the standards she has set, the core emotion someone feels about a day still needs to be considered, which is why I stayed home on my youngest's birthday instead of going out with her for a few hours to a friend's party, leaving the kids with their older sister.

Third, she still seems to rely more on declarations of love and arguing there is proof rather than acknowledging how the other person perceives her love. To wit, if I do not see her love, accept what she is and what she has done, the problem is likely with me not her.

Fourth, change for her seems to be given with great difficulty and only when existential threats are present. Basically, this has been going on for over a year and only recently have things begun to change, from folding laundry more regularly to reducing the hours she works (kind of).

Overall, I think she believes so strongly in herself, her good intent, her love, and her narrative that challenges to this worldview are treated viscerally as dangerous threats. She will get control over her fight and flight reflex eventually and come back to make small alterations she believes will heal the wounds. But to me, it seems like it is more about placating than truly getting to the core of an issue, especially when deeper discussion will bring many of her personal demons and pain to the surface. Her natural inclination is to let bygones be bygones and bury things deep in her psyche.

---Conclusion----

I still feel like the biased narrator who gives you all only one side of the story, completely unfair to my wife who has no opportunity to defend herself in this court of public opinion. I try to relay tidbits of truths from her in order to emphasize I am far from a perfect, saintly martyr, but I know these tidbits pale in the presence of the monstrous affronts I attribute to her. And I really hope I am not the monster that has deceived you all into sympathizing for me when it is my wife who is suffering because of my behavior.

In the light of morning, I still think I am headed for divorce. I will get the couples counseling and hide the court paperwork I am currently filling in. I will conceal the jobs to which I am applying and apartments I am searching in Denver where my kids are. And I will do my best to avoid further confrontations in hopes that she will follow the same course she often does, out of sight out of mind. She says she will talk to that guy today and says, to quote, "not sure what time I'll be home but I'll be there." I think the window to keeping this marriage is nearly closed, but I am rarely right about my life's course.

Thank you all for listening.

[amphibian]

The way I've learned to communicate about problems that one perceives in a relationship (through couples' counseling) is that externalizing a problem beyond the actions of another person is generally a better approach. For example, "Your job is killing you" is a very strong statement and is probably going to be met with "I'm still alive, I've been doing this a long time, I know this and you don't." A similar thought might get a better response if it was expressed as "I feel strongly that there's not enough time for us to be around each other, to reconnect, and to recharge with fun things."

That gives her a "we" problem to tackle instead of a "you" problem that is her fucking something up. She's already told you that criticisms of her is a big negative deal to her.

I also think that calling her a shitty parent is going to hurt in ways that you two are going to be dealing with for a long time, even if you directly think she is a shitty parent. That needed to be externalized as a "we" problem - as in "I see this child be sad that they don't get to spend time with us both on this day, that day, and so on. I want that to not happen. What can we do to lessen that?"

Bringing this back to the social workers I know - the group dynamic really only improved once a critical mass of them started going to individual therapy. They're not trained to handle the complex emotions and put into place healthy coping mechanisms for the awful, awful things they see, experience indirectly, or have to address. A friends' network is really nice, but all of that is above just about every friend's capabilities and needs to be handled by professionals. You can't make someone get into therapy, but you can say that the effects of her choosing this method of coping means that you get the short end of the stick on time with her, on connection, and how you miss her deeply. Then you can say that there's a healthier method available and leave her to be an adult about it (or not).

There's a lot of "ride through the pain" going on with both of you and it got to multiple explosive points. I'm sorry about that.

[Gust Hubb]

Amph, you definitely have extremely good and effective advice. I have been through couples counseling before with my ex when we were starting our marriage and trying to establish a firm foundation between us (kind of a healthy, preemptive kind of counseling, odd I know). That counseling over 10 years ago was my first introduction to the concept of not arguing with accusations and "yous" but rather talking about one's own personal feelings and experiences. I have also had a lot of psych appointments which have reinforced this perspective of conflict resolution.


And with my wife, I have actually have tried these methods. I don't always come across as perfect in avoiding the "you" in discussions, but I am also very aware of "yous" effect on the other person. Unfortunately, I don't think these techniques you mention always work when the psychology of the other person isn't receptive. I saw that ineffectuality a lot with my ex, and I see elements of similar resistance in my wife. Sometimes gentle pressure and "we" statements are easily ignored as less urgent.


As an example, here is an excerpt from an email to my wife back in May, on Sunday the 15th:

----....
All that to say that I am struggling, a lot. I can't do anything about your work and you seem fine (or at least comfortably resigned to) the state of affairs. I am trying to adapt, but this hasn't been getting much easier over time, especially when both small and large expectations (e.g. you being available for the haircut) are waylaid at the mercy of your work. I really miss you in bed and miss your time/emotional availability as they get lost in overtime hours and subsequent recovery from exhaustion. I am really worried about your health, knowing that inadequate sleep, stress, and overwork all can make things much worse and undercut your immune system. Please see that in someways I feel like I am fighting the world to get to be with you; and even if that sounds overdramatic, the kernel of that feeling is consistent.
So after my typical overwordiness, the request: I know that this weekend is going to get worse, and I will try to give you space and not make it worse for you. I ask you please, please consider skipping this Monday and being home with me, maybe even going out to the arcade or a nice dinner. I ask with a mind towards you getting rest while I work, and getting some quality time with you afterward since I don't foresee this weekend having any bandwidth. I know we have a weekend coming, but I don't think I can make it that long at this rate.
I am still trying to find the balance in talking with you and giving you space. Please be patient and know that I am trying. I love you and hope you were able to sleep. We can talk more when you awake, but if you don't want to talk then or this weekend, that is fine and I will give you space.
I love you.
----

The result of that email was she still went out with her friends on that Monday, coming home Tuesday morning. Records indicate that the morning of that Monday, she texted me a "Morning love" at 5:40 am and I replied in kind with "Morning" at that same time. Those were the only two texts of the entire day. Later in the day, I attempted to call her and she did not pick up (I think I remember learning later that her phone battery had run out). She attempted a return call at 11:30 pm that Monday, by which point I was already asleep. She did give me the concession of spending Wednesday with me (after my work) by canceling her overtime day shift. But ironically, that day was also Wednesday May 19th, the day I was fired from my job after work via email.

So, I think to some extent, one has to take my wife in the context of her job and life style, as someone who continually reacts to the largest crisis, triages what needs to be done, and prioritizes the critical over all else. I would hazard she is an adrenaline junkie. I have found that the times she has taken me seriously are usually after these word-bomb emails or a massive fight. Otherwise, in my experience, little changes in her behavior with gentle nudges and requests.

I spend all this space elaborating to try and give a window into why I act the way I do and to both acknowledge the value in your advice while also providing a counterpoint that sometimes it doesn't work because it takes two earnest, honest, and sane people to accomplish something.

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[amphibian]

Burnout, stress, and friction does reduce attention span greatly. I do think there's some value in reducing things to an elevator pitch that sets the discussion frame and you can go from there into the reasons why or feelings about things.

My elevator pitch for that email would be "I need more time with you. I'm super worried about us, I'm struggling, I need change and help right now."

Bounce that kind of ball into her court. It's small enough that it can be grabbed easily, bright orange enough with its urgency, and doesn't have the spiky "you are doing this" that prevents discussion.

Also that last line of "We can talk more when you awake, but if you don't want to talk then or this weekend, that is fine and I will give you space." undercuts your time frame for discussion and allows an easy out of just not looping back to you. "I want to talk tonight/at a certain time." End it there. If the time has to be adjusted, she can adjust it by talking to you.