[Gust Hubb]

::NOTE TO MODS: If after the reading the OP, you feel this is not appropriate, please feel free to delete this entire thread. I genuinely am working through the topic logically in my head, and as always, wanted input from other experiences knowing that I don't even begin to comprehend the diversity of opinion. If it helps, the below should read as if Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory is writing the OP.::


So I am now working though what is for me a new revelation, namely that when one is discussing sex, they don't always mean activity between two people that produces mutual orgasms.

Apparently the simple term "sex" can mean a host of divergent scenarios to people that encompasses a variety of actions. From what I gather, to some people, sex can solely mean a procreative act between male and female, excluding other penetrative acts. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum sex can be difined as anything leading to orgasm such as "phone sex" where no physical or visual contact between persons is required.

I know this is an awkward topic, which is why I bring it up with dry language and logical/scientific overtones, at least for the OP. I consider this thread more of a straw poll to help me understand the scope and diversity of how people think about the sexual aspect of relationships.

For me, up to very recently, I considered sex as anything between two or more people that intentionally led to orgasm in one or both/all of the participants. Even though I am aware of the difference between sex and love, I was raised to believe sex was a special activity reserved for the object of one's love, or, if one did not have a committed relationship, sex was a needed release allowable in lieu of any commitments (friends with benefits, prostitutes, etc). The definition of affair was sex with someone other than one's current committed love partner(s).

The new paradigm that has challenged me is that sex, like any other activity, is not always (nor even commonly) a morally exclusive activity between a pair/group of committed partners. To put it crudely, married people can have a committed and sound relationship with fuck-buddies on the side.

Moreover, not everyone considers "sex" to include things like mutual masturbation or oral sex. In other words, there are people who would not consider giving a hand job to another party outside a committed relationship as cheating or an affair (mind blown).

So what is all your thoughts and experiences?





Side note: For those who know me, or even extrapolated from my posts in other threads, my new discussion above is not in response to discovering my wife is cheating or having an affair or in response to myself cheating or having an affair. It arose in context of my wife feeling love simultaneously for me and a workmate, which is another conversation altogether. Ironically, I have little to no issue with someone loving/having-romantically-attraction-towards multiple people. To me, it all comes down to communication, openness, honesty, and ultimately, actions associated with one's feelings.

[amphibian]

This is a question that is deeply enmeshed into unique relationship dynamics that can only be satisfactorily answered by those in those relationships.

There is a general rule of thumb though - the more people involved, the better the communication and the boundary respecting has to be.

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It arose in context of my wife feeling love simultaneously for me and a workmate, which is another conversation altogether.

The above quote plus your many comments of abysmal communication, disappearances, and absolutely unequal work sharing between you and your wife says extremely strongly to me that this is a big, big, big problem and should be thoroughly discussed with your partner and a therapist who handles relationship dynamics.

I sense pain, confusion, and "Where do I/we go from here?" coming off this post in ways that make me want to offer support, yet point you to a healthier way of handling this than "Suddenly grapple with polygamy".

I emphasize that I offer you support and that you're not bad or wrong for asking.

[Aptorian]

Bill Clinton has strong opinions on this subject.

There may be different interpretations of what sex is and what sex means to different people but typing it out like this it just becomes semantics.

In my opinion sex is about intimacy. You can be intimate with one person or multiple people at once, but you can't be intimate with other people without it being considered cheating unless you have explicit permission.

All this bullshit about it was just a kiss or we were just role-playing over the phone, is excuses a cheating partner makes up to justify their own bullshit.

Being attracted to other people is different though. You can't control what you brain reacts to. You can however decide whether or not you want to spend emotional energy on fantasising about coworkers. That's relationship poison in the long run.

[Gust Hubb]

Yeah, I appreciate that Amph. I am still planning a couples counselor when I have income and health insurance, and you are correct in sensing the gravity of my situation to me.

I think I am fascinated by my lack of deep gut response to hearing a worldview so divergent from my own on such a sensitive topic. And as you said Apt, I recognize the danger of relationship poison and fear that far more than any sexual exploits. To provide addition context, my wife has had past open relationships including a marriage where the communication of a open relationship was done in much of the way you both describe. She is very experienced, in stark contrast to my toxic religious upbringing and slowly evolving perspective on sex and relationships.

But I think part of what has been driving the damage to our relationship was her fear of my reaction to her confession of a coworker professing love to her and her own guilt of feeling reciprocal love for this coworker in addition to still being in love with me. This has apparently been going on for almost a year, with her walking the razor thin line of continuing her friendship without initiating an affair on the side. And yes I have reservations and fears, but perhaps either through a delusional trust or an accurate confidence in her honesty, I believe her to be honest when she says she has not had sex with him (which is ironically a lesser concern to me than a split in her attentions and intimacy).

This thread is just one of my ways of processing all this while trying to grow as a person through breading my worldview.

[amphibian]

For most people, having actual love for someone outside a committed relationship that was previously mutually understood to be monogamous means there's a long, long chain of decisions that didn't result in distance from the other person or communication with the other person within that committed, monogamous relationship. Of what value is a friendship with a co-worker in comparison to one's relationship with one's husband and co-parent? I don't have an answer for that and it looks like she does (that they're equivalent). How do you feel about that? That's a very complicated question.

This is a "stop what you're doing with this other person, I am the person you married, we need to work this out immediately" situation. I can understand some degree of fear in not wanting to tell your partner that you'd like to be polygamous, but that has to come up way, way earlier than "I'm in love with someone else at the same time, you keep taking care of our kids while I disappear and treat this other person on a level equivalent to you, ok?"

It is absolutely ok to be hurt, to be confused, to want to accommodate a loved one, or even to move ahead with a polygamous relationship, but ultimately, you have to do what makes *you* happy - which I'm not sure is happening here with this whole thing. I don't think you're getting what I'd consider good communication, respect as a life partner, or support for you to work out what you both feel.

Why does therapy have to happen on your insurance policy? She's working and presumably has insurance for the kids, right?

[Gust Hubb]

amphibian, on 15 August 2021 - 06:22 PM, said:

For most people, having actual love for someone outside a committed relationship that was previously mutually understood to be monogamous means there's a long, long chain of decisions that didn't result in distance from the other person or communication with the other person within that committed, monogamous relationship. Of what value is a friendship with a co-worker in comparison to one's relationship with one's husband and co-parent? I don't have an answer for that and it looks like she does (that they're equivalent). How do you feel about that? That's a very complicated question.

This is a "stop what you're doing with this other person, I am the person you married, we need to work this out immediately" situation. I can understand some degree of fear in not wanting to tell your partner that you'd like to be polygamous, but that has to come up way, way earlier than "I'm in love with someone else at the same time, you keep taking care of our kids while I disappear and treat this other person on a level equivalent to you, ok?"

It is absolutely ok to be hurt, to be confused, to want to accommodate a loved one, or even to move ahead with a polygamous relationship, but ultimately, you have to do what makes *you* happy - which I'm not sure is happening here with this whole thing. I don't think you're getting what I'd consider good communication, respect as a life partner, or support for you to work out what you both feel.

Why does therapy have to happen on your insurance policy? She's working and presumably has insurance for the kids, right?

Yeah, that is a very complicated question and I feel mixed about it. It's hard, because the last relationship ended on a confession of homosexuality (really, it was far more than that, but the sexual preference was the deathblow that set me free). And to some degree I feel betrayed, but more by the suffering I experienced waiting for her to nut up and tell me than the confession itself. I can wrap my head around loving two people; it's the desire to live two lives that gets to me. The guy apparently has also set aside a room (library, chair, etc) at his place for her, as I learned toward the end of the conversation last night/early this morning.

And there are things that I can never provide her (I have never lost a child tragically whereas 3 of her work friends have lost children; I don't always "get" the paramedic work culture; I am not a party animal), which I acknowledge, however painfully. Furthermore, she is a psychologic mess of PTSD, stubborn independence, and suppressed memories/emotions (yes, she does get therapy). This was never going to be an easy relationship.

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It is absolutely ok to be hurt, to be confused, to want to accommodate a loved one, or even to move ahead with a polygamous relationship, but ultimately, you have to do what makes *you* happy - which I'm not sure is happening here with this whole thing. I don't think you're getting what I'd consider good communication, respect as a life partner, or support for you to work out what you both feel.

I completely agree and feel you are spot on here. I am definitely not ready for polygamy and I am definitely unhappy. There is a massive communication gap that has been exposed; but if it was easy as "talk to me more," that would be nice. And after a night sleeping on it and spending all morning in a thoughtful haze, I will press the point that I need her to minimize it all in the short term, at least until all the holes (child custody battle with my ex, her post-covid health deterioration, joblessness) have been shored up or repaired; and also probably until we have initiated couples counseling (her having the insurance means the uphill battle of convincing her to sit down and arrange the counseling, which is hard to do when I have mostly been putting out flash fires the past weeks/months).

[Aptorian]

From the posts you've made over the past... Many? ... Years, I feel like you spend way too much time being considerate about her emotions while quietly being frustrated that your own needs aren't being met or appreciated. At least from you account your girlfriend seems like an emotional black hole.

The adult, grown up thing is to want to fix things. To get counceling, to talk things out. If nothing else for the sake of the kids

But at some point you also need to think about yourself and not just be her emotional support animal. I'd have run screaming from that relationship years ago.

[Lady Bliss]

I have to agree with the others here, and say it bluntly. Whether or not she has had full on sex with lady parts and/or man parts, she has been lying to you and cheating on you at least emotionally. That this has been going on for a year, without bringing up a “how would you feel?” conversation, means she went out of her way to hide it from you. I honestly haven’t seen too much positive that you are getting out of this relationship. I think a true relationship needs to be based on honesty.

Can’t tell you what to do here. I really feel for you, and you can call anytime to talk or vent. *hugs*

[D'rek]

I feel similar to Ampha/Apt/BK/Bliss... it sounds like despite the efforts you've put in over the last few years things have still gotten steadily worse, and at this point it seems like it's time for drastic action.

As to the original topic itself, "sex" is a vague word that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't include all sorts of things depending on the context, and unfortunately the context is usually left unexplained. Ultimately, the better wisdom isn't to try and find some universal definition, because even if you did no one will agree on it, so better for everyone to just acknowledge that it is vague and act accordingly. In terms of relationship faux pas, by the time a "well ____ doesn't count as sex" conversation has happened that's already too far - if there was ever any uncertainty into what "counts" a respectful partner would have acknowledged the ambiguity and refrained from any action that might hurt their partner, or at least discussed it with their partner beforehand.

[Maark Abbott]

Baby don't hurt me

[Maark Abbott]

Well now I feel like a dick on actually reading the thread so I should give a serious answer.

For me, it's anything that can be considered intimate, insofar as cheating goes. A hug between friends is fine, a kiss or an embrace for lovers and anything above is yabe.

[Macros]

Sex, outside of the obvious, probably universally accepted main act, is what people think sex is.

Some people will use the above main act as the description of sex because it lets them have all sorts of fun without having sex
Whereas some people will define any intimacy that leads, or is intended to lead to orgasm as sexy time.

Personally I think it's like swearing. If you stub your toe and are about to scream fuuuuuuuccccckkkkk, but know there's a kid about and so change it to fuuuuudddddggggeeee, you still were swearing, and your intent was to swear. If you're dancing around the main act so you're 'not having sex' well......

Also people saying we didn't have sex to justify that an affair wasn't an affairm. If it's been an intimacy of any kind with an other that was clearly not platonic friendship and you have been striving to hide it? Yah that's cheating bro

[Morgoth]

At the risk of making this a kind of pile up, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. GH. You have been throwing your best into this relationship and she has betrayed you. I can't answer if this is something you can fix or not, but you are very much justified in feeling the betrayal and needing her to take responsibility for it.

[Gust Hubb]

Thank you all. Yeah, I am very slowly working my way through the revelations and seeing what should be obvious but requires waving away clouds of denial.

[Imperial Historian]

Gust Hubb, on 15 August 2021 - 03:54 PM, said:

as challenged me is that sex, like any other activity, is not always (nor even commonly) a morally exclusive activity between a pair/group of committed partners. To put it crudely, married people can have a committed and sound relationship with fuck-buddies on the side.

Moreover, not everyone considers "sex" to include things like mutual masturbation or oral sex. In other words, there are people who would not consider giving a hand job to another party outside a committed relationship as cheating or an affair (mind blown).

So what is all your thoughts and experiences?

This can be the case, but only with extremely good communication and agreement from all parties BEFORE anything happens. I have several poly-am friends, and from my perspective it's extremely admin intensive, and not something I was personally comfortable with.

I'm not going to make assumptions about your specific circumstances, but I would be extremely concerned about the fact that this has gone on for a year without any communication.


My personal opinion is that you can have an affair without having sex, regardless of the definition used for sex.

[Gust Hubb]

My wife is so mired in her own thoughts, emotions, and planning that she doesn't see what is in front of her. She says she needs time to figure out what she wants to do. I tried explaining that the longer she takes to figure things out, the more it feels like she is having trouble deciding between this other guy and me. She responds I have nothing to worry about and she wish she never told me. I persist that she was going to talk to the guy at breakfast and ended up sleeping over at his place, claiming she fell asleep when they were going to talk things out. She claims nothing has happened and she has not responded to his claims of "I love you" at all. But she also fails to recognize (?) how accepting gestures like being available during his crises, taking and wearing a gift of a Blues logo necklace, and even sleeping over at his place altogether imply there is a chance she will become his lover. Even if she has not affirmed his calls to be with him, as she claims, she has also been leading him on (however accidentally) for the year he has been professing his love for her.

She currently states she is overtired, has not had enough time to think about things, and still doesn't know what to do. She wishes she never told me and she says she will deal with it. She seems to think that if the situation were reversed with me, she would not have a major problem with it (I see this as her deluding herself frankly). I explain that having more time to think about things has only worsened the situation in my mind, and she responds I really should leave it be, she will take care of it. I tell her that for our relationship to survive, we will need more (not less) communication and couples counseling. She seems too distracted to respond much to that statement.


My semi-detached assessment is: my wife knows at her core she has made a big mistake, even if she can't bring herself to easily admit she is a "wrong-doer" not a "wronged." She knows I am agitated, but I don't think she knows how close I am to divorcing her now (or she is in denial). I think she speaks true when she says she doesn't want to hurt me or this guy, but I think her focus is currently more on the guy because he is the one to get the relationship axe. As a result, she has shunted me into her "unnecessarily worried" bin and tagged me as a problem to deal with when she has more bandwidth.

So my plan is: I still have to wait for the child custody trial results next Monday. I will also know in the next couple of weeks (I think) if I get this remote job for which I am interviewing. So until both of those situations are clear, I cannot really make any make-or-break relationship decisions.

Emotionally I am ready to throw in the towel and begin the divorce paperwork. Intellectually, I am willing to suffer a little longer (maybe a month?) to see if the marriage can be salvaged. Ultimately, I am trying to imagine what healing relationship could look like and how long it would take to become truly healthy again. And I am wondering if I have the energy and life to grant such clemency. Today, I really, really want to end it, but it feels like my decision is between prolonged suffering for me and catastrophic change for everyone around me (her and our kids). And I just don't know how much longer I should suffer before it becomes empty martyrdom.

[Cyphon]

Ah man, I just want to give you a big hug GH.

[James Hutton]

Gust Hubb, on 17 August 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

I tell her that for our relationship to survive, we will need more (not less) communication and couples counseling. She seems too distracted to respond much to that statement.

This is the way, you're doing good. Not responding to a request like this is a response in itself.

And like Cyphon says, I'd give you a big hug too!

[amphibian]

Gust, I'm proud of you for standing up for yourself and by extension, your children and your relationship with your wife too.

I wish you all the luck with the remote work job interview.

I can feel the pain here coming from you. There's room for you to be hurt, to be angry, and so on - just as there's room for you and your kids to have a great life. Good luck with the custody hearing also.

The read I make of the words and actions of your wife is that she's talking about dealing with stuff later, but actively doing stuff now to damage relationships in the house with you and the kids while not actually doing any of the dealing with stuff component. That stinks a lot.

[Mezla PigDog]

Gordon bennet, Gust. Good luck!

I have no useful comments on the polyamorous question other than it seems to be a lifestyle option for people with spare time on their hands. Chance would be a fine thing! Would she have the time if you weren't at home looking after her kids and keeping house? If the answer is no then she's taking the piss regardless of how intimate she has been with this other guy.