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***Spoilers / Dassem Ultor**** ****** spoilers *****

#1 User is offline   Mythodikal 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 12:16 PM

OK, so I don't know how to do the spoiler quote thing. Also, I don't know how much I'm going to be spoiling for the people that have read through this... But mods please help! Let me start by just syaing:

***Spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler!!!! Maybe? ICE & SE books all inclusive ***

Ok sooo... Dessembrae / Dassem. For those of us that have devoted an amazing amount of time, we think we have a pretty good grip on things. I am just doing my re-read and simultaneous re-listen of the ICE books. Doing RotCG listen and Deadhouse Landing reading at the same time is interesting to say the least.

Anyway, while it is great to get a better Dassem story I still feel that there is a part that I read somewhere that eludes me. I have read most of the posts and they all seem to say that Dassem is straight up Dessembrae, the one and only. I will admit that I just understood that there were multiple chainings of the CG so that makes the whole Hood thing make sense and may have bridged some timelines... maybe...

OK, so this is where I have the problem, and for the life of me I can't remember where the idea came from or know where to look for evidence. I am almost positive though that this life of Dassem is not the only life of Dessembrae. I think there are references by the elder gods, I think there are references by the Tiste Andii, and I'm pretty sure him being the Seguleh 1st doesn't line up unless it is a reincarnation type situation. Which I forgot to say that I thought somehere it said that Dassem was Dessembrae incarnate or took over the mantle, or something.

So am I crazy? Did I just not click on the right buttons? Because I saw no comments on this! Help! Haha

Also, isn't it kind of weird that Shadowthrone and Cotillion were apparently at the last chaining of the CG with Rake and Osserc when it seems otherwise no one even knows they exist? Like Rake, who kept all upstarts from Emurlahn was like "so we gonna do this?" (Also Osserc didn't seem to know them in RotCG) Anyway... that's a whole other kinipschit.

Thanks all!
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#2 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 02:06 PM

View PostMythodikal, on 20 April 2020 - 12:16 PM, said:

OK, so I don't know how to do the spoiler quote thing. Also, I don't know how much I'm going to be spoiling for the people that have read through this... But mods please help! Let me start by just syaing:

***Spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler!!!! Maybe? ICE & SE books all inclusive ***

Ok sooo... Dessembrae / Dassem. For those of us that have devoted an amazing amount of time, we think we have a pretty good grip on things. I am just doing my re-read and simultaneous re-listen of the ICE books. Doing RotCG listen and Deadhouse Landing reading at the same time is interesting to say the least.

Anyway, while it is great to get a better Dassem story I still feel that there is a part that I read somewhere that eludes me. I have read most of the posts and they all seem to say that Dassem is straight up Dessembrae, the one and only. I will admit that I just understood that there were multiple chainings of the CG so that makes the whole Hood thing make sense and may have bridged some timelines... maybe...

OK, so this is where I have the problem, and for the life of me I can't remember where the idea came from or know where to look for evidence. I am almost positive though that this life of Dassem is not the only life of Dessembrae. I think there are references by the elder gods, I think there are references by the Tiste Andii, and I'm pretty sure him being the Seguleh 1st doesn't line up unless it is a reincarnation type situation. Which I forgot to say that I thought somehere it said that Dassem was Dessembrae incarnate or took over the mantle, or something.

So am I crazy? Did I just not click on the right buttons? Because I saw no comments on this! Help! Haha

Also, isn't it kind of weird that Shadowthrone and Cotillion were apparently at the last chaining of the CG with Rake and Osserc when it seems otherwise no one even knows they exist? Like Rake, who kept all upstarts from Emurlahn was like "so we gonna do this?" (Also Osserc didn't seem to know them in RotCG) Anyway... that's a whole other kinipschit.

Thanks all!


Quote

Which I forgot to say that I thought somehere it said that Dassem was Dessembrae incarnate or took over the mantle, or something.


Are you referring to the title of first sword of the Imass? He was given that title/position recently (in Imass perspective).

Quote

and I'm pretty sure him being the Seguleh 1st


Are you referring to the events of OST? Because he wasn't Seguleh 1st.

Your question is confusing because it seems to be synthesizing slightly (to what I recall) inaccurate info from the books.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 04:00 PM

I think you're confusing the most recent chaining of the Crippled God that happens some time before Gardens of the Moon with other events.

There's no real confusion about events. Dassem was the First Sword of the Malazan Empire and also the Knight of Hood or some such title. He turns his back on Hood and swore vengeance. He then later becomes the First of the Seguleh after having stayed at some mountain tempel for a while.

There is some confusion about the difference between Dassem the person and Dassembrae the God. Dassem has not assumed his role as god of a cult of sorrow. Which may have let to some weird metaphysical schism because in one of later Malazan Books, probably Dust or the Crippled God, there is a scene that suggests that Dassembrae is seperate from Dassem, at least conceptually, if not in reality.
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#4 User is offline   Mythodikal 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:01 PM

Apparently I suddenly became bad at forums because my phone won't let me do quotes (blaming it on the phone anyway). So let's do some thumb typing!

HoosierDaddy:
- The first sword thing and Tool recognizing is not what I was talking about.
- OST and the Seguleh thing I will combine answer below.
- Is my post confusing? Definitely! With that said I am confident with a lot of it, except the parts I laid out as questions.

Aptorian (pretty much a magus around these parts...)
- As far as the chaining thing goes, I do not directly recall the descriptions, but that Malaz Wiki sight seemed pretty convincing with footnotes corroborating those involved. (Full disclaimer I didn't actually click the links... they were hyperlinks though...)
- Even without that site, it was always my understanding that Dassem bailed on Hood because of something to do with his daughter being taken. I thought it was around the time frame of the chaining.
- As to OST and the Seguleh 1st thing. I haven't got there in my re-"read". With that said, I do recall that I at least had the impression that it seemed the position of the 1st was being held. Like there was a return of their god, not that he just fell in to it.
- Lastly, I say again that I am quite confident that there are references to Dessembrae that date much further back than the kid who grew up in Dal Hon and fell in with K&D. In RotCG I am sure that Ereko makes a comment about the mageyocracy of a certain island not knowing the ancient power that they would be awakening if they attacked their group with Traveller as a part of it.

And then there is always the option that this humbling world kicked my ass again. Haha. But... that's what is beautiful about this world right?

Cheers,
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#5 User is offline   Mythodikal 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:09 PM

Oooohh, not a great example, but the best I can come up with off hand. Dessembrae being almost like a Sha'ik type god situation. Waits to ride on the backs of someone strong enough with enough tragedy.

Like I said, not perfect at all, but something similar. I mean Silchas Ruin knew Dessembrae and he was in an Azath for millennia.
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#6 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 06:39 PM

Daseem is Dessembrae. But, as Apt said there is confusion in the situation. He himself states in RotCG that "I am here in my aspect" when he speaks of Ullen's death (his aspect is that of Dessembrae), but he also acts often as simply the man Dassem/Traveller. To add to the confusion, Apt mentions that in one of the later books ST or Cot sees an image of Dessembrae (I believe it involves the Coltaine's godhead) and speaks to it as if the best portion of "it" is still somewhere traveling around in the regular world.

The Jaghut Tyrant of Darujhistan's spirit uses the first's mask as some sort of finnest that allows him to take control of whoever wears it. That mask was flawless. The 2nd was nominally in charge of the Seguleh during that book as the 1st (possibly the mask later used in Darujhistan (it is certainly implied) has been absent for a long period of time. Dassem agrees to/is forced to lead the seguleh at the end of the book when he kills the 2nd.

As to Dessembrae being present in past millennia... I admit to zero recollection of that. Are you referring to Dessimbelackis? Dassem = Dessembrae is obviously correct. But I recall zero evidence of Dassem being anything more than a regular human prior to becoming Hood's Mortal Sword and from there 1st Sword of the Malazan Empire.

View PostMythodikal, on 20 April 2020 - 06:09 PM, said:

....I mean Silchas Ruin knew Dessembrae and he was in an Azath for millennia.



He knows of him after his release from the Azath, yes. But in which book does he say that he knew him prior to entering the Azath?

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 20 April 2020 - 06:41 PM

Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#7 User is offline   Mythodikal 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 07:14 PM

Thanks for the OST recap, I am looking forward to getting back into that. Like I said an impression that I was left with. It really resonated, I'll pay super attention in the way back through.

As to the Dessembrae/Dassem thing. You and Apt are right. It definitely didn't make it easy. The whole split thing is a curve ball in an already dense enough story line. I've been looking around and you are 100% right that the Silchas thing wasn't that he knew him from the past. It was just that weird meeting and maybe a reputation element.

The Dassem / Dessembrae / Dessimbilackis thing (I know I butchered that spelling). It's one that I have seen a lot in my poking around today and that would explain the timeline issues. Is it what I was thinking of? I don't think so... but maybe...

From what I have been able to find the majority sides with you guys that there is no previous Dessembrae. It seems there is a GotM'ism, and the traditional SE and ICE not necessarily being on the same page, or explaining things properly. Was it Dassem at the chaining or Dessembrae, Dancer or Cotillion?

All that being said... you are wrong, and I am right. That's just science! So there!

Haha, in all seriousness, thanks. It's been a fun chat. I can't deny when the evidence is stacked against me. I still can't let go that there is something in there that I can't pin point. Just like I can't be convinced that when I used to drop a beer cap in a log in my back woods as a kid that I wouldn't come back the next day and get a looney. IT HAPPENED!

When it comes down to it, it's pretty great to have such an exciting and challenging escape.

Cheers my friend, stay safe.
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#8 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 08:08 PM

Welcome to the forum. For Spoilers you can find the action under the other styles drop down in the upper left or you can put
Spoiler
.
How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
Hinter - Vengy - DIE. I trusted you you bastard!!!!!!!

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#9 User is offline   Mythodikal 

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 04:57 AM

See that is the thing. Maybe it is using Chrome on my phone, but these drop downs don't exist. I'll just go back to using my laptop for any further discussions. My thumbs are getting unreasonably big!
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#10 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 06:25 AM

You can just type it out

[spoiler]What ever text you want to hide goes between the spoiler brackets[/spoiler]

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