[Keysi]

Careful now, full series spoilers ahead.




Why exactly was Fener getting pulled I to the mortal realm considered so significant and makes him "vulnerable"?

Most of the gods and Ascendants encountered tend to be in the mortal realm when doing tingz and are certainly vulnerable.

The only other times I can think of gods being safely in their own realm would be Krul at the very start, the Azathani dicking around doing Nom knows what in the Kharkanas trilogy and Hood concocting an elaborate plan to come to the mortal realm in TtH.

Just not sure why Fener doing it was so wow wtf is going on here this is big.

[Aptorian]

A god and an Ascendant is not the same. A God has the power of worship behind them and usually either some kind of personal warren or an entire aspected realm to draw power from.

Gods rarely ever manifest physically in the "real" world, instead they send heralds or speak in the minds of their followers or agents.

There are small gods and there are big ones. Fener was a war God with millions of worshippers who got pulled into our realm and severed from his power. He's still powerful and dangerous but now he's vulnerable.

[ArchieVist]

Yeah, I think the key is the mechanism by which Fener was forcibly pulled into the world. Especially with the involvement of the magic-weakening otataral. To make matters worse, the universe immediately replaced him with Treach as god of war and all his followers began shifting over. A god without followers is said to be emasculated.


The first other god physically coming to the Malazan world that comes to mind is Poliel. She came voluntarily, kept her worshippers, and retained her power. And it was otataral that proved her downfall.

[Keysi]

Aptorian, on 28 March 2020 - 04:37 AM, said:

A god and an Ascendant is not the same. A God has the power of worship behind them and usually either some kind of personal warren or an entire aspected realm to draw power from.

Gods rarely ever manifest physically in the "real" world, instead they send heralds or speak in the minds of their followers or agents.

I'd say I agree in general but there are some exceptions.

It turns out Rake is a god since he has worshippers in, Bluepearl was it? Tiste Andi remnant city somewhere on Lether. He even has a Mortal Sword, but no Warren of his own. Unless you could say KG is, but I'd say probably not.

And Dassem gets a cult of worshippers too.

I can't think of a Law of General Godhood that covers all. Nor Ascendant. I think even all Jaghuts might as well be considered Ascedants, at least from a human perspective.

[Aptorian]

Rake does not recognize his worshippers and refuses their potential. I believe Silchas Ruin comments this in MT.

Dassem also refuses his godhood though the worship has pushed him into Ascendance, much like Coltain. Strangely, from what we see in late books, it appears that the cult of Dassembrae is creating a godhood separate from Dassem the mortal/ascendant which is hard to wrap your head around.

Ascendance typically signifies breaking the perceived laws of mortality. Pushing past pain, fear, doubt, struggling, overcoming, sacrificing. A human Ascendant is like some Jaghut. But a Jaghut Ascendant, likely what we think of as tyrants, or Gothos, are like gods. It's hard to tell. Erikson seems to play fast and lose with efficacy. But there definitely seems to be tiers.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 April 2020 - 05:53 PM

[Kanese S's]

The way I always interpreted it was that the way Fener was pulled into the mortal realm was unwilling and therefore he can't get back to safety.

Other gods have appeared in the mortal realm, but it's always uncertain how fully there they are. Like they're holding part of themselves back to avoid being made vulnerable. Poliel seems to have manifested fully in the mortal realm, and it turned out that this was incredibly dangerous. Usually she probably would have fled back into her warren, but the otataral prevented her from doing so and it turns out that a god fully manifested in the mortal realm can be killed without too much trouble if they can't escape.

[Keysi]

Forgot to check back on this thread.

It definitely is hard to tell.

What is also hard to get the head around is it doesn't always automatically work out that a god is the highest tier, followed by ascendant, then mortal.

Silchas Ruin would easily kill the likes of Oponn, who seems weak as piss, in a straight up fight, I think. As would Gruntle. Not that Oponn would likely allow a straight up fight. Heck Gruntle might even be more powerful than his own god.

Plus its argued at some point that Silchas would destroy that Imass Azathanai. I forget her name. There's probably more examples, they are just off the top of my head.

On that, how powerful are run of the mill Jaghut?

We know the likes of Raest, Icarium and Gothos are powerhouses, but they have probably ascended. What about Gethol? He gets slapped around a bit.

This post has been edited by Keysi: 09 May 2020 - 02:27 AM

[Kanese S's]

Keysi, on 09 May 2020 - 02:26 AM, said:

Forgot to check back on this thread.

It definitely is hard to tell.

What is also hard to get the head around is it doesn't always automatically work out that a god is the highest tier, followed by ascendant, then mortal.

Silchas Ruin would easily kill the likes of Oponn, who seems weak as piss, in a straight up fight, I think. As would Gruntle. Not that Oponn would likely allow a straight up fight. Heck Gruntle might even be more powerful than his own god.

Plus its argued at some point that Silchas would destroy that Imass Azathanai. I forget her name. There's probably more examples, they are just off the top of my head.

On that, how powerful are run of the mill Jaghut?

We know the likes of Raest, Icarium and Gothos are powerhouses, but they have probably ascended. What about Gethol? He gets slapped around a bit.

Well, remember, a god is not a separate kind of thing from an ascendant. In this universe, a god is just an ascendant with worshipers.

Accepting worship makes ascendants more powerful than they'd otherwise be, but at the same time also has strings attached, some of which we've seen at play. This is likely why Anomander Rake rejects his worship.

Raest was already a powerful mage, and it's uncertain if the effects of being worshiped from his tyrant period have worn off. Icarium, IMO, is a special case all unto himself.