[Palmdiggity]

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed but who do you think is smarter/more manipulative, Kellanved or Tehol Beddict?

[Nevyn]

Well, they are smart in different ways.

The trouble and fun with Kellanved is you never really know for sure what the plan is, and how much of what results is really stuff he anticipated. He clearly manipulates a lot and achieves a lot, but some of that calls to mind the quote "happiness is pretending you always wanted what you got".

Tehol's brilliance is a fair bit narrower and mostly economic, but is far more measurable in that way, where it is clearer what the goal is and that he achieves it as planned. After he becomes reluctant King, most of the decisions impacting the story are really just going along with the wishes and advice of Bugg (Mael) and Brys.

[nacht]

Good question. I think Tehol is a better tactician where as Kellanved is a better strategist.
A key difference is also their ambition. Kellanved is way more ambitious (i.e at a global/god scope) vs Tehol and that mindset itself make Kellanved much more powerful.

You should also add Gothos and Krul in this list to compare :-)
Maybe Haut too.

[nacht]

And of course, Quick Ben the great :-)

[Keysi]

And Kruppe if we're listing the smarty pants.

He is after all described as singular in intellect, by no less than Krul.

[Palmdiggity]

I agree that it's not easy to compare the two given their different areas of expertise. They are both great manipulators and a joy to read.
How could I forget about the Great Kruppe?!
I'm not I would put Quick Ben on the same level as Kellanved and Tehol, but he's definitely up there.
Can someone remind me who Haut is again?
I can't remember what book it was in but doesn't Mael at some point talk about the three greatest manipulators he's ever know to be Tehol, Kellanved and Draconus?

[Abyss]

 Palmdiggity, on 03 March 2020 - 02:41 PM, said:

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed but who do you think is smarter/more manipulative, Kellanved or Tehol Beddict?

Kellanved was a political genius. Tehol is an economic genius.

Both have flaws... If you look at their accomplishments in the books, Kel assembles an Empire to support his own goals, but in the long term logistics and power structure may not outlive his rule. The Empire under Laseen and then Rel are clearly not as strong as it was under Kel.

Tehol constructed an economic situation that effectively destroyed the Leth Empire. The human cost tho, in terms of lives and destruction, were entirely overlooked, either by omission or intent.

Kel manipulated people, more or less directly. He also manipulated the magic 'system' to engineer his own ascension.

Tehol manipulated a financial system, including the people using it.

At a stretch, edge to Kel for manipulating something entirely beyond human construction

It's really hard to say which was 'smarter'. Both are genius, both did things others could not.

Again, at a stretch, and based only on hints... Kel's efforts resulted in godhood and immortality... he outlives his efforts. Tehol, it seems, dies or falls from power shortly after becoming Emperor, so edge to Kel again.


Other manipulators of note... Kruppe, Pust, Rel. All impressive but not quite at the same level. Kruppe and Pust act for others. Rel builds on what others have done or failed at but doesn't quite go as far as Kel or Tehol.

Immortals... The Errant and the Twins, but those are acting in their aspects and mostly in the short term. Rake, Krul, Draconus, Raest... all impressive but their massive glorious epic sweeping plans seem to end in their imprisonments, deaths, or versions thereof more often than not.

[Keysi]

 Palmdiggity, on 06 March 2020 - 02:44 PM, said:

I agree that it's not easy to compare the two given their different areas of expertise. They are both great manipulators and a joy to read.
How could I forget about the Great Kruppe?!
I'm not I would put Quick Ben on the same level as Kellanved and Tehol, but he's definitely up there.
Can someone remind me who Haut is again?
I can't remember what book it was in but doesn't Mael at some point talk about the three greatest manipulators he's ever know to be Tehol, Kellanved and Draconus?

Someone, and I can't remember who, when describing Kruppe as the world's smartest person, in the same sentence or paragraph orat least in thesame scene, also calls Quick Ben a close second. A very close second.

Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact scene in order to reference this.

[Cyphon]

Memories of Ice, Whiskeyjack to Dujek - just after Brood loses his temper with Kruppe en route to Capustan