[SiriusL]

With all of the origin reveals and character call-outs, I may be overly sensitive. That said, I had only one thought when I read through this passage about Janelle, her twin brother, Janul, and their visit to the wax-witch, Rose.

Quote

Kellenved's Reach, p190 (Kindle Edition) - Emphasis is my own

The woman was scraping the pipe bowl. 'Do not think me simple, little ones.' She gestured to them with the pipe. 'You two are children of Shadow. Your master is set upon overturning every applecart he can reach. I do not approve of his methods, but I understand his motives -- how else is he to make room for himself, hey?'

The twins eyed one another uncertainly.

Rose waved a dismissal. 'Faugh. Do not worry. Your secrets are safe with me. I am just a simple wax-witch. Push and pull go the fates.' She walked off, repeating in a singsong voice, 'Push and pull.'

The twins waited until she was out of earshot, then Janul asked, 'What did you learn?'

Janelle nodded, and whispered, 'The tribes bicker as always, but they are close to moving against Itko Kan. All it may take is a push.'

At that last word Janul frowned and glanced at the witch, who walked the shore now, hands at her back, puffing on the pipe. 'Very good,' he murmured, distracted.

This isn't the origin story of Oponn, is it? I don't remember what MBotF has to say, except that apparently they were revealed to be the children of Sechul Lath in DoD.

Is ICE just playing with us, or could it be possible that the twins actually ascended during or near the beginning of the Malazan Empire? Did Rose do more than take some of their years to add to her own?

This post has been edited by SiriusL: 24 April 2019 - 08:05 PM

[Nevyn]

It occurred to me, but I doubt it.

Oponn are never mentioned as being that new a god, when ST and Cots were. And ST basically said they were Knuckle's children, although that could be metaphorical.

But the wax witch Rose ... I was wondering if she was Rigga (the wax witch at the start of Apsalar's tale who ranted on about push and pull).

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 24 April 2019 - 08:12 PM

[Abyss]

I hadn't considered the Oponn link... nice catch.

The 'Knuckle's children' thing could be as little as a ref to similar aspect, so no barrier there.

An Oponn has always been a 'newer' god.



The Rose/Rigga thing... certainly possible.

[Zetubal]

ICE really makes it sound like that would be the case. The only thing to really add or ask at this point is: How? What would've had to happen to make these two ascend - and why have we not heard about it thus far?
Ascension is, of course, a process that we still know fairly little about. Still, by looking at other "recent" ascendants shown in the books, we can infer a couple things/conditions. Cotillion and Shadowthrone are special cases since they more or less actively seek out a vacant seat of power to usurp it. Dessembrae took some major cult-ish worship. Same goes for the redeemer. Massive worship is arguably also what nearly made Coltaine an ascendant. We can also infer that some individuals can apparently use might&magic to "force" their way into ascendancy to some extent. And there's the odd special circumstance like going through the fires of Tellann or succeeding on the Path of Hands etc.
Now, if all of these have one thing in common, it would be that they aren't exactly things that go unnoticed. There's no known major cult of Oponn, we know of no event that would call for the creation of one, the kids in Kellanved's Reach do not appear to be so gifted that they would easily ascend on that basis, we know of no existing trial that needs to be overcome to become "Oponn", there's no apparent vacancy in the pantheon, and considering that these two are spies by profession I also have a hard time imagining that a cult develops that worships them as people to the point where that would elevate them to ascendants.

There are also a handful of implications to consider, if that theory were true. Mainly that this would mean Oponn used to be subservient to Kellanved - i.e. they at least would have had a history of that at some point in the past. Once again, something that we find no indication of throughout the books. The minor other thing on my mind would be that it would presumably have been a topic of some debate among the Malazans if one of their folk had recently ascended to godhood. I mean, that's kind of a big deal. But nobody in the Empire ever comments on their origin or even lays claim to some sort of "kinship".

None of this means that the theory is wrong - it's just that looking at what we know, it strikes me as a bit far-fetched.

[ArchieVist]

Interesting. On the other hand, both of them are clearly mortal as they get killed off early on in Return of the Crimson Guard. Janul is publicly executed in Unta by Laseen for declaring himself Tyrant of Delanss while Possum kills Janelle in the crowd of onlookers.

This post has been edited by ArchieVist: 25 April 2019 - 03:52 AM

[Tsundoku]

ArchieVist, on 25 April 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

Interesting. On the other hand, both of them are clearly mortal as they get killed off early on in Return of the Crimson Guard. Janul is publicly executed in Unta by Laseen for declaring himself Tyrant of Delanss while Possum kills Janelle in the crowd of onlookers.

Or did they? Another example of the uncertain narrator perhaps?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 25 April 2019 - 04:41 AM

[Nortros]

Well, it seems strange for ICE to create an introduction of two characters that he previously established to have been killed in a certain way, just to turn around and tell us that they are something completely different.

Unreliable narrator seems a wonky excuse for all the problems the change would create.

[Abyss]

ArchieVist, on 25 April 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

Interesting. On the other hand, both of them are clearly mortal as they get killed off early on in Return of the Crimson Guard. Janul is publicly executed in Unta by Laseen for declaring himself Tyrant of Delanss while Possum kills Janelle in the crowd of onlookers.

I applaud your recall and/or search techniques.

I utterly did not remember that.

Tsundoku, on 25 April 2019 - 04:41 AM, said:

ArchieVist, on 25 April 2019 - 03:35 AM, said:

Interesting. On the other hand, both of them are clearly mortal as they get killed off early on in Return of the Crimson Guard. Janul is publicly executed in Unta by Laseen for declaring himself Tyrant of Delanss while Possum kills Janelle in the crowd of onlookers.

Or did they? Another example of the uncertain narrator perhaps?

Nortros, on 25 April 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

Well, it seems strange for ICE to create an introduction of two characters that he previously established to have been killed in a certain way, just to turn around and tell us that they are something completely different.

Unreliable narrator seems a wonky excuse for all the problems the change would create.

I wouldn't go with uncertain narrator. More likely ICE was actually filling in a minor blank re those two the way he has for various characters throughout his side of the ME books.


Otoh, we have a few examples of ascendents existing in two aspects, ie Dessembrae as god of tragedy /Traveller as ascendant badass looking to stab Hood, so it is not unthinkable that those deaths at the beginning of RCG were still Oponn, either 'caught' in another aspect, or playing their own game.

More likely tho', the Oponn link is a red herring.

[SiriusL]

Nortros, on 25 April 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

Well, it seems strange for ICE to create an introduction of two characters that he previously established to have been killed in a certain way, just to turn around and tell us that they are something completely different.

Unreliable narrator seems a wonky excuse for all the problems the change would create.

See, this is what I get for never re-reading the earlier ICE books. I completely forgot they were even characters. Thanks for the call-out.

With that in mind, I agree that this seems like a red herring. Or maybe it's some kind of running joke whenever male/female twins are a thing in the books.

[Puck]

For what it's worth, in tCG Knuckles/Sechul confirms that Oponn are his children/creation/accident/whatever.

Quote

[Knuckles] Against the madness of such contradictions, I wagered my very life. I walked into the heart of Chaos to challenge the absurdity of existence. And for that, I was torn in two.
My modest achievement.

They also call Sechul "father" to his face. And by the story Sechul tells Oponn are at least significantly older than teh empire.

[nacht]

And in terms of worship, anytime somebody calls on them (like in games of chance or in real life), they might be invoking Oponn worship.

Similar to the god and goddesses of Wine

[Nortros]

SiriusL, on 25 April 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

With that in mind, I agree that this seems like a red herring. Or maybe it's some kind of running joke whenever male/female twins are a thing in the books.

I would argue that in a world with twin gods like Oponn, making fun of any annoying twins by reference to them seems the natural thing to do.

[BAD]

Nortros, on 26 April 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

SiriusL, on 25 April 2019 - 03:44 PM, said:

With that in mind, I agree that this seems like a red herring. Or maybe it's some kind of running joke whenever male/female twins are a thing in the books.

I would argue that in a world with twin gods like Oponn, making fun of any annoying twins by reference to them seems the natural thing to do.

Agree on sly red herring. Characters in Deadhouse Landing already refer to Oponn and the Twins. I forget who and where, but they are referenced. At least I'm sure it's DL, could just be earlier in Kellanveds Reach tbh.

[Aptorian]

I don't see the connection at all. The two kids are remnants of Kelanveds network of street urchins from the first book. That's the shadow connection.

[Abyss]

I have the vaguest recall of recognizing one of them as someone from an SE book and now my brainzez are mushzez argh.......