[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

There are several extremely skilled war commanders at Winterfell. There's the Bronze Yohn (who was a better fighter than Need Stark in his youth), Brienne, Jaime, Jorah, the Dothraki leaders, Greyworm and the other commanders of the Unsullied etc.

The tactics displayed in the battle are so bad that there are articles and posts on Wired and Reddit by military people listing how awful they were.

Don't care? Don't care. I know that seemingly bothers you. I still don't care though.

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

And they're right. We're right here too.

Charming. Do you imagine that somehow you saying you're "right" is going to change my view?

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

You can ignore whatever you want to,

True.

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

but there is essentially no way that this was "smart" or "just a plan to draw out the Night King".

Did I ever say it was either of these things? I did not.

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

The budget doesn't necessarily dictate that the battle happens as such.

It dictates a lot more than you're willing to allow, but that's insider production baseball I guess.

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

The horse do not need to be featured beyond the flank actions. The trebuchets get swapped to the rear of the infantry. The Unsullied fight behind the main trench etc. We aren't proposing an hour of CGI dragons fighting. We're saying that if they rearranged the bits of CGI they did and reposition people, it would look and feel a hell of a lot better than the dumb shit that made the screen.

...don't care.

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

But you liked it and therefore there's no valid critique to be made.

It's not that I'm unwilling to take/accept the critique....I simply don't care. The 80 minutes of TV I watched entertained me. Battle tactics didn't even enter into it. Certain TV episodes make me feel a certain way by sucking me in with the story. This did that. I can't explain it any other way. This includes what you are calling "bad tactics" I guess because I liked it all. Simple as that.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Remember when Sam is on the ground with a wight slowly bringing a blade tip to his eye, as Sam struggles to hold his hand... and then, predictably, he gets rescued by a familiar face? At that moment I was thinking, 'Now the cliche in every B movie would be to have his rescuer promptly get killed from behind'... and that's exactly what happened. Did it still have an emotional impact? Sure. Did it diminish the emotional impact, and make the whole thing seem more like a dumb joke? Definitely. And there was just one scene like that after another.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 30 April 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

.. The 80 minutes of TV I watched entertained me...Simple as that.

This.


I could raise or argue all the entirely valid points about tactics, character, tropes.... they're all entirely true.

Didn't matter to me. I've already watched it twice. It's a gazilion-dollar production of a tv show about a fantasy story in an imaginary world based on a fantasy book.... it held my attention and none of the 'errors' were so hideous to my eyes that they threw me out of the story. I'm good. HBO subscription cost justified.












...also, Dothraki fight the way Dothraki fight. They would never go for being flankers when a perfectly good screaming headlong charge is available, even if it's in the dark across uncertain footing against an unknown number of enemies. While carrying flaming swords.

[Andorion]

Tapper, on 30 April 2019 - 03:16 PM, said:

amphibian, on 30 April 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

There are several extremely skilled war commanders at Winterfell. There's the Bronze Yohn (who was a better fighter than Need Stark in his youth), Brienne, Jaime, Jorah, the Dothraki leaders, Greyworm and the other commanders of the Unsullied etc.

The tactics displayed in the battle are so bad that there are articles and posts on Wired and Reddit by military people listing how awful they were. And they're right. We're right here too.

You can ignore whatever you want to, but there is essentially no way that this was "smart" or "just a plan to draw out the Night King".

The budget doesn't necessarily dictate that the battle happens as such. The horse do not need to be featured beyond the flank actions. The trebuchets get swapped to the rear of the infantry. The Unsullied fight behind the main trench etc. We aren't proposing an hour of CGI dragons fighting. We're saying that if they rearranged the bits of CGI they did and reposition people, it would look and feel a hell of a lot better than the dumb shit that made the screen.

But you liked it and therefore there's no valid critique to be made.

It isn't the first time tactics were doing more damage than good. That aside, I still wonder how the showrunners can let Jorah demonstrate to a Dothraki how well plate armor works versus slashing weapons, and yet everyone who wields a straight sword, does so in wild slashing arcs (the straight sword having a larger point of impact compared to a curved sword thus less penetration through impact) in the culture that spawned said plate armor.

Simple. Jorah demonstrated that when the showrunners had book material to hand and the battles you are referring to happened after the material ran out.

[Tiste Simeon]

I don't get why there has to be such a critique? Like, I just don't do it. Is it pulse racing, tension building TV with lots of action and violence? Yep. Love it.

Does it really matter that Sun Tzu didn't approve of the battle tactics? Not even remotely.

Some people here tear into just about every film or show they watch and it seems like that's a great way to never enjoy anything again.

[Traveller]

Abyss, on 30 April 2019 - 03:45 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 April 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:

.. The 80 minutes of TV I watched entertained me...Simple as that.

This.


I could raise or argue all the entirely valid points about tactics, character, tropes.... they're all entirely true.

Didn't matter to me. I've already watched it twice. It's a gazilion-dollar production of a tv show about a fantasy story in an imaginary world based on a fantasy book.... it held my attention and none of the 'errors' were so hideous to my eyes that they threw me out of the story. I'm good. HBO subscription cost justified.












...also, Dothraki fight the way Dothraki fight. They would never go for being flankers when a perfectly good screaming headlong charge is available, even if it's in the dark across uncertain footing against an unknown number of enemies. While carrying flaming swords.

Yep. I could find a load of stuff to pick on.

But watching it last night - blown away.

[worry]

Traveller, on 30 April 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

From what we've seen in the show, taking a new face takes time and preparation - not something that could be done in a dark gatehouse during a battle. Also, the walkers just explode when they die. And, they have some silent communication with each other - I think they'd have been aware if one of them was replaced.

That said, in my first viewing I thought that the Walker that turned his head slight when the Nk reached for his dagger was Arya. It may be that he was responding to her passing by.. maybe even Theon was.

It also looks on second viewing that theres a possibility that both Theon and Bran have seen Arya - the charge by Theon is a distraction.

Arya knows she can't totally sneak up; that wrong handed knife trick was planned from the start.

But as to how she got so close... well, they had her sneak up on Jon in exactly the same spot in a previous ep. Plus, they spent a good 5 minutes in winterfell showing how Arya was creeping about the wights, and made a point of showing that blood drops hitting the floor were louder than she was moving about.

She may not have pulled a face swap but she used all her other tricks to get there - even the yell when she pounced was likely to make him turn around so she could stab him properly - intentionally or not, right where the flint that created him went.

Even though on first pass the direction and editing of this scene don't necessarily make this plain enough, if this is the case it actually makes me feel a whole lot better about that scene (including Theon). I'll make it head-canon whether it's true or not, just to salvage it.

This post has been edited by worry: 30 April 2019 - 05:21 PM

[polishgenius]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 April 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

Some people here tear into just about every film or show they watch and it seems like that's a great way to never enjoy anything again.

I totally get people just going along for the ride and not caring much about the little details, but I get royally narked off when someone implies that I'm somehow defective for doing so.

(this goes for both sides by the way. Notice how often me and QT disagree on things at a level so ingrained it's almost genetic and yet somehow manage to not imply each other are defective for doing so)

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 30 April 2019 - 05:28 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 30 April 2019 - 05:21 PM, said:

Traveller, on 30 April 2019 - 08:24 AM, said:

From what we've seen in the show, taking a new face takes time and preparation - not something that could be done in a dark gatehouse during a battle. Also, the walkers just explode when they die. And, they have some silent communication with each other - I think they'd have been aware if one of them was replaced.

That said, in my first viewing I thought that the Walker that turned his head slight when the Nk reached for his dagger was Arya. It may be that he was responding to her passing by.. maybe even Theon was.

It also looks on second viewing that theres a possibility that both Theon and Bran have seen Arya - the charge by Theon is a distraction.

Arya knows she can't totally sneak up; that wrong handed knife trick was planned from the start.

But as to how she got so close... well, they had her sneak up on Jon in exactly the same spot in a previous ep. Plus, they spent a good 5 minutes in winterfell showing how Arya was creeping about the wights, and made a point of showing that blood drops hitting the floor were louder than she was moving about.

She may not have pulled a face swap but she used all her other tricks to get there - even the yell when she pounced was likely to make him turn around so she could stab him properly - intentionally or not, right where the flint that created him went.

Even though on first pass the direction and editing of this scene don't necessarily make this plain enough, if this is the case it actually makes me feel a whole lot better about that scene (including Theon). I'll make it head-canon whether it's true or not, just to salvage it.

What it really demonstrates is how ridiculously easy it would have been to make scenes like this more interesting and more meaningful, and just how lazy and execrable the writing was.

OTOH Slate has published an article by a 'visiting professor at the United States Army War College' on why the strategy 'wasn't so bad' (compared to the US military's last few decades I guess?):

https://slate.com/cu...is-tactics.html

Most of the article seems to be admitting that it was pretty bad though.

On the Dothraki, this part seems interesting---and counterintutive:

'The success of a cavalry attack against infantry requires either flanking (hitting a formation on its side while some other group “fixes” its front) or a shocking frontal assault that disrupts the formation. Both of these depend more on psychological than on physical factors. Fear of being attacked from two sides induces infantry to break and flee, just as fear of being overrun causes infantry to throw down their weapons and run. In either case, cavalry runs free and kills until the infantry can pull itself back together. But crucially, success depends on the ability of the cavalry to induce panic.'

So cavalry just doesn't work if the infantry doesn't panic?... What about horses trampling people and so forth?

[polishgenius]

Azath Vitr (D, on 30 April 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

So cavalry just doesn't work if the infantry doesn't panic?... What about horses trampling people and so forth?

It's apparently basically impossible to make a horse charge a well-formed group of infantry (or any large mass of people really). They won't run at anything they think they can't jump over.

[amphibian]

The ideal use of the Dothraki isn't to cause panic in the dead horde. It's to continually draw a number of them away from the Unsullied and other infantry and force the Night King to commit to the battle on his dragon - so that Jon and Dany can go after him.

The trebuchets ideally are there to provide continual illumination and reduce the number attacking by a non trivial amount.

The difference here between people discussing this episode seems to be that for some, the awful tactics do not jar their enjoyment of the show. For me and for others, the show has been built around development of martial strategy and geopolitics with two pressing enemies - the other families battling for power and wealth and the army of the dead commanded by the Night King.

I'm not expecting everyone to turn into Hannibal Barca, but these are really basic fuckups and the show put an enormous amount of time and energy into developing these martial stories and actions to a certain expectation (one of competence).

Let me see if I can put this in an analogy - let's say a team of miners are put together to go up to space to an asteroid headed directly to earth. They train hard with all the montages, get development, friction is encountered then resolved, and they get to the asteroid. Then they put the drill together completely upside down, throw it real hard at the rock, and are about to all die before Liv Tyler is revealed as a stowaway and jams a nuke magically at the center of the asteroid and saves everyone.

The saving of everyone by Liv isn't really the problem. The upside down drill and throwing the upside down drill at the rock instead of drilling properly by trained people is the problem.

[Primateus]

We all saw the same episode, those zombies where controlled by someone willing to throw his troops into blazing fire in order to get to his one goal. That commander was surely not going to let his troops be distracted by a bunch of screaming crazies riding around. Sure, they'd have fought the Dothraki, but to suggest that they would be drawn away from the Night King's sole objective? I think that's baseless speculation.

Therefore, I highly doubt that a flanking maneuver would have done much good. No, I agree with QT, the dothraki were always going to be utterly useless against the undead.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 30 April 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 30 April 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

Some people here tear into just about every film or show they watch and it seems like that's a great way to never enjoy anything again.

I totally get people just going along for the ride and not caring much about the little details, but I get royally narked off when someone implies that I'm somehow defective for doing so.

(this goes for both sides by the way. Notice how often me and QT disagree on things at a level so ingrained it's almost genetic and yet somehow manage to not imply each other are defective for doing so)

We're ALL defective together!

[blackzoid]

I guess there is a certain suspension of disbelief that the average viewer is required to undertake when watching any show.
As long as the tactics seem somewhat plausible, then its taken at face value even if it is equally bullshit. If it breaks suspension of disbelief too much then it breaks immersion in the show and triggers the "thats total BS instinct" which is variable for each person.

Examples are numerious but say for example the Wakanda scene in Avengers Infinity War. The alien swarm slowly comes through the shield and is attacked from afar with projectiles and from above by Falcon and War Machine. Once they see that the swarm can circle around behind the shield and its is in danger of getting Vision from behind where their army is, they open a hole in the shield to prevent this and run forward to plug that gap. It seems somewhat plausible all the way. I saw some complaints about the tactics but not too many. If you want more direct comparisons there is of course Helms Deep where the tactics were equally plausible (though I've never been certain about the Horse charge down the embankment but of course it was a Hail-Mary move at that stage).

By contrast, the Dothraki running forward without support at the very start of the battle goes beyond what many people can take from Hollywood-cool-tactics to stupid-moronic-tactics. There was no benefit to doing it. Its a fine balance between "I can accept that" to "this is stupid".

Its the same way for me where I cant watch a lot of horror slasher movies anymore. The victims, even though i'm not being fair and they are emotionally traumatized, are just too stupid to live. So, the killer has been knocked down eh, and you've seen him get up already? Why are you not kicking them when they are down! Why are you now turning your back on him ?!! Thats it, I'm now on their side!

EDIT: Maybe a good move would have been to send the Dothraki all forward in the last episode to nibble at the horde while they were still on the march and attempt to slowly whittle down some of their numbers in a safer fashion through fight and flee tactics?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 30 April 2019 - 06:30 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Briar King, on 30 April 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

I enjoyed. Could care less about tactics. If I wanted tactics I'd watch History channel or AHC.

Obviously they wanted to promote the new Game of Thrones military strategy game they've been advertising ('Winter Is Coming: Even Hodor Could Do Better'...).

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 30 April 2019 - 06:14 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Yeah their 'Game of Thrones: Winter Is Coming' military strategy game launched worldwide on Friday, lol.

https://www.business...nches-Worldwide

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 30 April 2019 - 06:08 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 30 April 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 30 April 2019 - 05:00 PM, said:

Some people here tear into just about every film or show they watch and it seems like that's a great way to never enjoy anything again.

I totally get people just going along for the ride and not caring much about the little details, but I get royally narked off when someone implies that I'm somehow defective for doing so.

(this goes for both sides by the way. Notice how often me and QT disagree on things at a level so ingrained it's almost genetic and yet somehow manage to not imply each other are defective for doing so)

We're ALL defective together!

Wasn't suggesting anyone is defective for doing so and apologies if it came across like that. I just mused aloud (as it were) that it seems to me that so much digging in to something would ruin the enjoyment.

[Mezla PigDog]

Yeah but you are defective, Tiste.

[Abyss]

I would never suggest someone is somehow defective for not enjoying something i enjoyed even if they are obviously wrong basted in wrongsauce and filled with wrongitude and should be beaten with the wrongstick.

Also, communist cylon-skrull hybrids.

[Tiste Simeon]

Mezla PigDog, on 30 April 2019 - 07:39 PM, said:

Yeah but you are a detective, Tiste.

Thanks!