Malazan Empire: Steven Erikson and the suffering of ordinary people - Malazan Empire

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Steven Erikson and the suffering of ordinary people

#1 User is offline   MattK3 

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 02:54 AM

I admit, this topic or something similar might have come up half a bajillion times already. Not close to a million, nor even a hundred, but half a bajillion (like three times or so - a lot). That is, Steven Erikson is quite good and trenchant (or even more serious words) at depicting suffering, even while most of the time he is just depicting whining (exposition whining), but when he is depicting suffering he is quite good at it and it is one of his strengths. It has a kind of universal or a "fate of the world" quality and it is both horrible and rings true.

However, even so, he doesn't seem to depict "ordinary" people all that well (normal commoners, the masses) - in fact, when they are not the main problem, they are sort of fodder. He hesitates somewhat at giving us the full load of suffering of characters - even while it goes way beyond the ordinary - but the "masses" are generally just fodder, with their suffering even MORE horrid but somehow dismissed, or rabid lunatics. Even while I agree with the point of it - he is right, the stupidity of the masses is a MAJOR factor in historical, anthropological, sociological tragedies, and probably won't cease to be. But even when it concerns the suffering - like ten thousand of the most horrid deaths taking forever etc., all the stuff he constantly throws at one - it is there as a haunting image, but kind of dismissed. It doesn't seem really "represented" in some form. There are some representatives (like Felisin or whatever - which also describes her well), but the emphasis is something else, and the "masses" are that, or rather "the mob" and fodder.


I guess I made my point, and there you have it. So let's close with the ending formula: With this knowledge, will you ever read Steven Erikson again, or not?

This post has been edited by MattK3: 23 March 2019 - 02:59 AM

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#2 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 03:30 AM

I guess the one major counter-example would be that section in Toll the Hounds when Hood shows up and he drops a bunch of anecdotes about random people's experiences from it in very personal fashion. Powerful and poignant, but it makes sense he wouldn't be able to do that in every book, every time, else the pacing of the narrative would falter a lot, no?

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#3 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 06:51 AM

Not sure what point you claim to make. He doesn't 'represent' suffering, although there are 'representatives', but their emphasis is on 'something else'? I don't recoghise your point at all as Erikson is one of the few fantasy writers who provides us with tons of viewpoints from 'the masses' and one of his strengths is that he can paint a vibrant image that hits home in a limited amount of words, so no need to dwell endlessly on specifics that muddy down the overall plot. So yes I will read Erikson again, and no I don't get your point.
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#4 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:29 PM

Sorry, can't agree.

Significant parts of Midnight Tides and Reaper's Gale contain both oblique and direct critiques of the condition of the ordinary and poor masses of Lether - how they are marginalized, exploited and enslaved. SE devotes a lot of space to making clear that suffering, its causes and its implications.

As D'rek pointed out, Toll the Hounds has an extraordinary example of how to hold up the ordinary and make it shine.

What SE does is best is highlight the mechanisms of suffering - how it is inflicted and caused, and how it is normalized, accepted and institutionalised.
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#5 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 05:23 PM

Cannot agree, either. For one, if you feel like he dismisses and glosses over the suffering of people, I do not want to read a book in which you feel the author doesn't, because I feel like SE has a way with being both poignant and brief in driving home what he wants to say without endlessly dwelling on one scene just to make sure it is accessible to the lowest common denominator. I do not want to read endless descriptions of how much someone is suffering as I feel like he tells us just enough to understand the implications and be horrified without cheapening the experience by pages upon pages of mundane description. Thus, to answer your question: I not only will reread the series, I have, more than once, and will again, and SE's prose and style are a huge factor in why I keep doing it.

Another thing I do not agree with is that he depicts "the masses" as unilaterally stupid and ignorant. It is not so. While we do have instances of "the masses" acting as one, they are exclusively (at least as far as I can think of any examples) in the presence of fanaticism or desperation. The ordinary people (of which he also depicts more than you seem to think, at the very least way more than other authors) are generally shown to be individuals and to have their own thoughts, etc. People often complain that the marines all read like one homogenous mass when the point of them is that while they all are part of a whole, they still retain a degree of individualism, with each marine having their own outlook on what is going on or why they keep going. I doubt SE took the time to write each one of them to plump up the narrative. He did it to show that those marines, who in the end almost all die in a battle that ordinarily would have no individual faces, ARE, in fact, individuals, and I think he uses them as a stand-in for all other kinds of groups which we may percieve as homogenous because they do not get that treatment. But it is impossible to give that treatment to every single group the narrative touches upon, so with most of the others, we only get glimpses most of the time, which, however, in no way implies that they are all the same and all stupid and ignorant. In fact, I would argue that what you call the stupidity of the masses as "a MAJOR factor in historical, anthropological, sociological tragedies" is hardly his viewpoint. Uneducated does in no way equal stupid. And the books repeatedly show that as a general rule, the common people do not care about the shenanigans of those in power as long as their own life is not greatly influenced by that. To the contrary, we only see true mass movements of the common people when their lives ARE uprooted or otherwise made so miserable that they have no other choice.

On an unrelated note: the common dot is not a wild beast. It does not bite. To the contrary, it strives to be of help and makes sentences much easier to read. Same goes for the common comma.

This post has been edited by Puck: 23 March 2019 - 05:26 PM

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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 08:32 PM

Since everyone's weighing in against, I do feel there are some parts of some books where "the masses" are quite noticeably not written about much at all. The brainwashed Kolansii armies in TCG come especially to mind, being basically just cannon fodder enemies. The actual citizens of Capustan get almost zero "screen time" except as corpses, in lieu of all the different guests in their city.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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