[Cause]

These books deserve a thread!

Book 1: The traitor Baru Corumant

Tomorrow, on the beach, Baru Cormorant will look up from the sand of her home and see red sails on the horizon.

The Empire of Masks is coming, armed with coin and ink, doctrine and compass, soap and lies. They'll conquer Baru’s island, rewrite her culture, criminalize her customs, and dispose of one of her fathers. But Baru is patient. She'll swallow her hate, prove her talent, and join the Masquerade. She will learn the secrets of empire. She’ll be exactly what they need. And she'll claw her way high enough up the rungs of power to set her people free.

In a final test of her loyalty, the Masquerade will send Baru to bring order to distant Aurdwynn, a snakepit of rebels, informants, and seditious dukes. Aurdwynn kills everyone who tries to rule it. To survive, Baru will need to untangle this land’s intricate web of treachery - and conceal her attraction to the dangerously fascinating Duchess Tain Hu.

But Baru is a savant in games of power, as ruthless in her tactics as she is fixated on her goals. In the calculus of her schemes, all ledgers must be balanced, and the price of liberation paid in full.

Book 2:

Spoiler

The Monster Barue Corumant


A breathtaking geopolitical fantasy as fraught as Game of Thrones, The Monster Baru Cormorant is the long-anticipated sequel to Seth Dickinson gut-wrenching debut, The Traitor Baru Cormorant.

Baru Cormormant's world was shattered by the Empire of Masks. To exact her revenge, she has clawed her way up razor-edged rungs of betrayal, sacrifice, and compromise, becoming the very thing she seeks to destroy.

Now she strides in the Masquerade's halls of power. To save the world, she must tear it asunder...and with it, all that remains of her soul.

[Morgoth]

I loved The traitor Baru Corumant. There were scenes in that book which genuinely pushed me to the brink of tears. That's happened maybe a handful of times in my entire life of reading.

[Cause]

Okay I'm back! So hard to discuss this without spoilers!

Traitor to me was an excellent book. Its brilliant in its story and I also thing very good in the way it covers its deeper topics. Its a philosophical book that stays grounded. It leaves you to think bout the implications. However once you have done some thinking on your own Id advise reading some interviews with the authors.

For me one on the most powerful parts of the books is that the empire of masks is anti-gay, anti-lesbian, anti-transgender and very pro eugenics. However they don't hate, at least not in the typical sense. They hide everything behind incredibly sterile terms. They talk about sexual and social hygiene. Gay people are bad because gay people don't have kids. It comes across to me as incredibly creepy and even more off putting than vile hate. They also teach these doctrines. The empire of masks teaches you to abhor gay people in the same way they teach you to wash your hands before eating, lest it make you sick.

It also touches upon the ideas of control, governance and civilization. Progress seems to require people working together and that requires laws and someone being in charge. When does the progress justify the rules? The people of the empire feel justified in conquering the savages because after they have explained soap and why polygamy and gayness are wrong they will be so grateful. Which leads ultimately to the plot of the first book. The only way Baru can defeat such a powerful empire is to learn their secrets and their ways and attack them from within. However can you act like them without being them?

Great novel. Thoroughly recommend it. Want to discuss it! I just finished book 2 and have many thoughts which Ill post later

[Abyss]

I didn't know bk 2 was out. Shall get.

[End of Disc One]

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

[Cause]

I honestly can't think of a reason. I can see why Bakker turns a lot of people off but I think these books are well worth a read.

[polishgenius]

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

Firstly, the writing style is kind of weird, and quite infodumpy in places, and second, it was written with a very specific point in mind and while I don't really mind books having agendas and this is a well-intentioned one, at times it was pushing its point so hard that it was repeating itself and detracting from the story.

I mean, I was one of those who liked the book, but it did have its issues.


There were also people who thought it mishandled the issues it was talking about, though I can't remember the exact arguments for that.

[Tiste Simeon]

Curse you all this sounds amazing and I can't add to my TRP I just can't!

*Heads to Amazon to see how much Kindle version is*

[Morgoth]

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

Westeros have never been good at the whole taste thing anyway. The whole place is a little too American.

[Cause]

 polishgenius, on 06 November 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

Firstly, the writing style is kind of weird, and quite infodumpy in places, and second, it was written with a very specific point in mind and while I don't really mind books having agendas and this is a well-intentioned one, at times it was pushing its point so hard that it was repeating itself and detracting from the story.

I mean, I was one of those who liked the book, but it did have its issues.


There were also people who thought it mishandled the issues it was talking about, though I can't remember the exact arguments for that.

I didn't find the writing style weird of overly info dumpy myself. I also think that its wrong to say the books are hammering home a specific point. They are perhaps doing that, however the book is also very much an argument against that point. Its basically saying that reality gets in the way.

I guess I can see now that for some people the handling of Gay people or transgender people etc might put them off. I think it handles it well. The empire in the book is as I say anti-gay, though the author is not. The main characters parents are polygamous and bi however so their is conflict around this point. The book does what good fantasy does best, it highlights an issue worth discussing through a fantastical caricature that perhaps does not exist in the world and maybe never could. Its also as I say creepy in how they go about it. They don't hate gay people, going around killing them or anything. Instead they treat it as both a mental and physical disease to be cured. Genital mutilation of lesbians to take away pleasure from sex will remove their desire for other women. Or perhaps fear of punishment will make a gay man suppress that side of himself and he will start a family, if so he is 'cured'. Similarly as I say the book is very pro-eugenics, the empires citizens the falcresti are industrious and clever, the savages have a primal vitality to them that may make them useful. Some beauracrat could get it in his head that their should be ten percent intermarriages to create a new stock of citizens who are industrious and vital. One of the core tenants of the empire is that it treats the whole of civilization as a patient which must be tended. Certain ideas are diseases to be cured (revolt and rebellion) because they threaten the empire. Other ideas (gays, lesbians, marrying whoever you want) are dangerous because they supposedly damage the demographics of the empire etc. Their are some vile ideas in the books but the points the author is trying to make are interesting.

[Cause]

Suspire Suspire Suspire

Book 2 spoilers

Book 2 spoilers

Book 2 spoilers

Spoiler

Okay this new trend of people thinking its okay to just split a movie or a book in two has to stop. You can do it with TV because its just a week till the next episode or at worst a year until the next series. Books and movies need to have at least some closure. This book just stops, I have since learnt apparently the manuscript was too long and so they just cut it in two. Part two is written but I cant find a publication date. I hope it will be out very soon! Also if it was written why not just publish it now? Is this a money thing?

The cancrioth? We didn't learn enough to really judge. Still I am not sure I like this. The first book had been very grounded and now we have uranium and cancer wizardy. Also have a lightning storm in the east that seems magical as well...

Xate Yawa's POV. This was awesome! She is both more and less evil than I realized. Possibly very damaged. Its also interesting to see that she has the same motivations as Baru. However because neither can trust the other they will likely never be able to co-operate. Another way the empire manages to exert its control.

Clarified! I love this idea. Find them incredibly creepy. I don't consider them to be people or really alive. Just fleshy robots. I find the idea that Iscend is deprogramming herself interesting because I don't really see how it should be possible. Will she become a person with actual free will or is she deprogramming herself in the sense just that she will be able to follow her core programming in a way that she sees fit. Without instructions to better the empire I don't see that she has any motivations.

Aslo why has Purity Cartone who has been away from the metademe for so much longer not had these problems. I mean he is broken but in his case its a problem of a computer executing code correctly, it just has the wrong code.

What is a Laman? Still not clear. A third gender but not a hermaphrodite?

I like Hesychast. Mad scientist but he comes across as very vulnerable actually. Its also painful for me to read his ideas. Man is brilliant but he also has some very strange ideas that I want to slap out of him. He is stuck on Lamarckism (the use or disuses or any organ or train in the parent organism will pass it down to its offspring) which is difficult to watch because his ideas are all flawed as a result but would not be so batshit crazy if true. If I didn't know he was wrong his ideas would be good. I am not sure but I'm imagine many of his ideas are taken from real world people when such ideas were believed. Though the cancrioth may make his ideas a plausibility even so. Not sure.

Interesting to see the fight between itinerant and Hesychast. Which I suppose at is most basic level should be interpreted as nature vs nurture. That exact phrasing only occurred to me now but I think its apt. Hesycahst believes that the flesh holds the key to everything. Itinerant believes that people can be conditioned to behave however we want. What troubles me though is that this divide seems to not be as clear cut as the author has suddenly made it in book 2. After all the Clarified are Hesychasts masterpieces and while they are the product of selective breeding they are also heavily conditioned to act as they do. Their conditioning appears more important than their breeding infact.

I'm scared to be reintroduced to Xate Olake in later books. The one horror I react vividly to in books seems to be torture. If he has been reconditioned into some slavishly obedient empire citizen Ill be sick.

Similiarly the character of Aminata has somewhat been destroyed for me now that she is a torturer. The story seems to have glossed over the fact that she is a torturer though. You cant do to someone what she did and not be affected by it. At least to my mind. She is also a victim of the farrier process though it seems.

Lots of revelations on excactly how carefully Farrier has manipulated Baru.

Bane of Wives. Not sure on the point of this character yet though I am sure she is meant to have one. At current my best idea is that though she is unmastered this means she has no connection to anything and therefore her life is now pointless. However she came back to save Tain Hu which also suggest her ideas of being unmastered are not necessarily accurate. I sense some connection to the idea of trim.

Great book, loved it

[HoosierDaddy]

 Morgoth, on 07 November 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

Westeros have never been good at the whole taste thing anyway. The whole place is a little too American.

Meaning what exactly?

Anyways I liked the first. Need to grab second soon.

[End of Disc One]

 Morgoth, on 07 November 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

Westeros have never been good at the whole taste thing anyway. The whole place is a little too American.

I guess that means I'll hate it!

[Abyss]

 Morgoth, on 07 November 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Traitor seemed to be very love or hate. I know the people on Westeros mostly hated it, it's pretty well liked on Reddit. What makes it so divisive? Thinking about adding it to my TRP.

Westeros have never been good at the whole taste thing anyway. The whole place is a little too American.

Disagree
Americans are delicious.




...as to THE TRAITOR BARU CORMORANT, it's polarising for a number of reasons, not least that while it's fantasy, the magic elements are so minimal as to barely exist, economics form a key and huge element of the story, plus all the gender issues, a relatively unsympathetic protagonist, and a slow pace. None of these are automatic negatives but for many fantasy fans who like their swords bloody and their dragons fiery and their baddies outright capital E Evil, they're offputting.

Me, i enjoyed it because of most of those elements. It was nicely original and different.

[Abyss]

Just finished bk 2 THE MONSTER BARU CORMORANT.


I liked TRAITOR, but MONSTER i really really enjoyed. In every respect the writing and story were tighter, better, and more gripping.

The economics and genetics and politics were all still there, but the entire book is basically one long chase that propels people and events forward at a great pace. The characters are complex, there's very little good/bad, just competing agendas all of whom believe they are right and doing what is best for the rest of the world.

Baru herself is perhaps more confident this time, even when she doubts her actions. Tain Sheer is a glorious antagonist, and i genuinely enjoyed the interplay between Baru and the Xate and Apparitor, three people who should never ever even be in the same space as each other let alone forced to work together on a mission.

And i'm with the perhaps small group of fans who were happy to see more 'magic' introduced this time. Even if it was more science than magery, i enjoyed the concept of the Cancriot and what we saw of them was original and interesting.

Will reply to some upthread posts next.

[Abyss]

SPOILERS RE BOOK 2 BELOW HERE

SPOILERS


SPOILERS


UNBLOCKED

UNLOCKED

OPEN

EXPOSED

RAW

BITING


SPOILERS

 Cause, on 07 November 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

...
Okay this new trend of people thinking its okay to just split a movie or a book in two has to stop. You can do it with TV because its just a week till the next episode or at worst a year until the next series. Books and movies need to have at least some closure. This book just stops, I have since learnt apparently the manuscript was too long and so they just cut it in two. Part two is written but I cant find a publication date. I hope it will be out very soon! Also if it was written why not just publish it now? Is this a money thing?

My understanding is that it was a space thing... the book was too big for what they had planned. That said, it would hardly surprise if a publisher would prefer to roll out two solid books close together instead of one followed by a longer wait for the next.

Quote

The cancrioth? We didn't learn enough to really judge. Still I am not sure I like this. The first book had been very grounded and now we have uranium and cancer wizardy. Also have a lightning storm in the east that seems magical as well...

I, otoh, was pleased to see the author intro this more fantastical element. I enjoyed book 1 but t bugged me that it would have as easily taken place in medieval Europe. Why create a fantasy setting if you don't indulge in some fantasy (or sf)?

Quote

Xate Yawa's POV. This was awesome! She is both more and less evil than I realized. Possibly very damaged. Its also interesting to see that she has the same motivations as Baru. However because neither can trust the other they will likely never be able to co-operate. Another way the empire manages to exert its control.

Very much enjoyed her povs, and her frustration at not being able to work with Baru. Everything about her was just fascinating, her ties to the various characters, her massive skill set, the way she downplays just how insanely competent she is.

Quote

Clarified! I love this idea. Find them incredibly creepy. I don't consider them to be people or really alive. Just fleshy robots. I find the idea that Iscend is deprogramming herself interesting because I don't really see how it should be possible. Will she become a person with actual free will or is she deprogramming herself in the sense just that she will be able to follow her core programming in a way that she sees fit. Without instructions to better the empire I don't see that she has any motivations.

Aslo why has Purity Cartone who has been away from the metademe for so much longer not had these problems. I mean he is broken but in his case its a problem of a computer executing code correctly, it just has the wrong code.

The clarified were much more interesting. in book one they seemed mostly like brainwashed assassins. Here we saw just how much more was going on. Great concept.

Quote

What is a Laman? Still not clear. A third gender but not a hermaphrodite?

Other than gender-non-specific, i don't think they ever told us. Honestly Tau and their backstory was the least interesting part of the book for me. Too much 'child grows up, realizes the world is complicated' not enough real intrigue and connection to the wider story.

Quote

I like Hesychast. Mad scientist but he comes across as very vulnerable actually. Its also painful for me to read his ideas. Man is brilliant but he also has some very strange ideas that I want to slap out of him. He is stuck on Lamarckism (the use or disuses or any organ or train in the parent organism will pass it down to its offspring) which is difficult to watch because his ideas are all flawed as a result but would not be so batshit crazy if true. If I didn't know he was wrong his ideas would be good. I am not sure but I'm imagine many of his ideas are taken from real world people when such ideas were believed. Though the cancrioth may make his ideas a plausibility even so. Not sure.

Interesting to see the fight between itinerant and Hesychast. Which I suppose at is most basic level should be interpreted as nature vs nurture. That exact phrasing only occurred to me now but I think its apt. Hesycahst believes that the flesh holds the key to everything. Itinerant believes that people can be conditioned to behave however we want. What troubles me though is that this divide seems to not be as clear cut as the author has suddenly made it in book 2. After all the Clarified are Hesychasts masterpieces and while they are the product of selective breeding they are also heavily conditioned to act as they do. Their conditioning appears more important than their breeding infact.

I'm scared to be reintroduced to Xate Olake in later books. The one horror I react vividly to in books seems to be torture. If he has been reconditioned into some slavishly obedient empire citizen Ill be sick.

i really, really enjoyed the development of the senior Cryptarchs in this book. They became at once more human and more threatening. And the relationship between Baru and Apparitor was great reading... their respect/competiton/ally/enemy thing, and the way it affected the people around them, was very well written.

Quote

Similiarly the character of Aminata has somewhat been destroyed for me now that she is a torturer. The story seems to have glossed over the fact that she is a torturer though. You cant do to someone what she did and not be affected by it. At least to my mind. She is also a victim of the farrier process though it seems.

Yep. Maybe i missed something, but to me her whole "Falcrest's greatest torturer" thing came out of absolute nowhere and so little development or reflection in her povs that i wasn't even sure it was the same character.
Also, her devotion/obsession with Baru seemed to come out of nowhere. They were friends in bk 1 but not enough to justify this.

Quote

Lots of revelations on excactly how carefully Farrier has manipulated Baru.

Oh yes, and especially the very last revelation about her father. THAT was a shocker.

Quote

Bane of Wives. Not sure on the point of this character yet though I am sure she is meant to have one. At current my best idea is that though she is unmastered this means she has no connection to anything and therefore her life is now pointless. However she came back to save Tain Hu which also suggest her ideas of being unmastered are not necessarily accurate. I sense some connection to the idea of trim.

I really enjoyed Tain Sheer. She was an unstoppable force that really required Baru's bestest brains to survive. The eventual revelation of her link to the Cancriot made her even more formidable.

[Tiste Simeon]

Anyone know if this is just a trilogy or if it's due to have more?

[Abyss]

 Tiste Simeon, on 19 July 2019 - 02:47 PM, said:

Anyone know if this is just a trilogy or if it's due to have more?

Tor says it was to be a trilo, but MONSTER was a bigger book split in two and sold well, so we'll get 4.

[Tiste Simeon]

Just wondering whether to dive in or wait a bit...

[Abyss]

Tough call. Speculating, if i had waited til the series was done i would likely have read 1-4 with a book in between each, maybe not if 3 and 4 bull;d further on the pace and story improvements in 2.

I'm usually in favor of waiting for the whole thing. I wish i had at least read the Tor refresher before getting into MONSTER because i had forgotten a lot... TRAITOR is dense and complex and MONSTER doesn't 'waste' much time re-educating the reader. I remembered or looked up what i couldn't but the author doesn't do the work for you. I respect that.


That said, these are dense, complex books... might be a bit dry for a back-to-back read.