[Burn's Bridge]

Heh, well the truth was revealed in this chapter.

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 15


Kalam befriends Salk Elan aboard the Ragstopper. Elan is leaving Aren due to a bounty on his head, and he arranged Kalam's passage on behalf of Mebra. I learned that Mebra (who gave Kalam the Holy Book) had guessed Kalam's goal was to assassinate Laseen. I still cannot tell Mebra's true alliance, nor do I know who Salk Elan really is. All I know is that Kalam is going to Unta on the Ragstopper, Pormqual's household and horses are going to Unta on a separate ship, and that Korbolo Dom and Kamist Relo's rebel armies have united against the Malazans. Oh, and Minala is sneaking aboard Pormqual's ship with his horses to follow Kalam for some reason.

Back in Coltaine's army, they are debating whether to retake Ubaryd or go beyond the Vathar, but Duiker talks about something interesting. He said Kellanved and Dassem Ultor had turned the Empire into a merit-based system of advancement (I think a meritocracy would be the word), which created a power struggle. Apparently Laseen's Claws were involved in that power struggle and that caused blood to be spilled on the palace steps, whatever that means. "She should have learned from that episode. We had our second cull, but it was far too late." I do not know what that means. It seems to imply Laseen took issue with Kellanved's meritocracy and led rebellious assassinations, which may have eventually led to the assassination of Kellanved himself. Perhaps Kellanved's merit system, or how he chose to issue merit, was unfair in the eyes of Laseen. But I don't know what Duiker means about the second cull.

So it was Felisin after all that became Sha'ik reborn. It's a little unexpected. However, if Sha'ik's rebellion will summon a retalitatory army led by Tavore, then it makes sense for the purposes of Felisin's revenge. Felisin, Leoman, the Toblakai, and Heboric walk along Raraku and interestingly Heboric can sense ghosts, "memories of an age that followed the First Empire." So, not as old as the ruins of the buried city. That implies the ruined city was 9000 years old, and the First Empire is newer than that. Also the Toblakai goes ahead to kill a Soletaken that killed seven people on the road. I have no idea who that Soletaken is.

Over to Icarium and Mappo (and Fiddler and Crokus), still on the trail of Apsalar, it looks like Icarium stumbled upon the secret that Mappo didn't want him to discover. 94,000 years ago, Icarium went on a rampage against the T'lan Imass in this city by the sea. The T'lan Imass arrived and "sought to drive an enemy back... an old alliance between the denizens of the city and the Silent Host." Now I understand from Gardens that the Forkrul and K'Chain disappeared for reasons that are not yet explained, but the Jaghut and the T'lan Imass did have a pretty tumultuous relationship (a war, basically). The T'lan Imass emerged victorious in the end. Did Icarium fight the T'lan Imass invaders in this city as a part of that overall conflict? Was there a more personal issue at stake? The point is that Mappo knows Icarium went on a murderous rampage and destroyed everything and everyone in that city, except for an artifact he made. Icarium doesn't remember this; Mappo does, and fortunately for Mappo the others blame it on an Ascendant and Icarium believes them.

Then we go to Mappo's memories, again of the Nameless Ones. First, Mappo says that the "First Empire" was not really the First Empire, as the T'lan Imass claimed that title long before. So what we're really talking about when we say the First Empire is the first human empire. You know, I get the feeling that humans are descendants of the T'lan Imass - they are the last of the founding races, after all, so where did the humans come from, if humans were not a founding race? There is always this implied connection between the T'lan Imass and humans, whether it's Laseen's alliance with Onos T'oolan, or Kellanved's alliance with the T'lan Imass in Aren. But maybe I'm reading too much into it. The point is, I have to now remember that First Empire could mean something different depending on who says it: it could mean a First Empire of T'lan Imass, or a First Empire of humans. So I have to pay special attention to the context. Anyways, in the time of the first human empire, the Nameless Ones were sworn to a god and were one of two sects, but the Nameless Ones dissented. Mappo thinks he knows their new master, but he doesn't reveal it - and he thinks the power of the new master is in their twisted staves.

Finally the group discovers Apsalar and Servant - that is, Rellock. Turns out Iskaral Pust had made a fake "Path of the Hands" to lead shapeshifters to the gates of Tremorlor, the Raraku Azath House, rather than the real gate below his Shadow Temple. Fiddler's happy to have found Tremorlor, since he wanted to use it to get to Malaz City, but what confuses me is that they are now entering a "fragmented warren." I really don't know what that means. Also Pust says that the Azath makes his "immortal lords" (Ascendants of Shadow) look like fumbling children? So Azath are like Ultra Ascendants?

So much lore...

[Esa1996]

IIRC the prologue was called "cull" or something similar so that might give you some hint on what the second cull is.

As for Azath, you might remember Raest from GotM and that he got caught in an Azath House. You might also remember that he dueled against 5 dragons and didn't get totally destroyed. Gives some idea of his power levels.

[Zetubal]

 Burn, on 29 June 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

The T'lan Imass arrived and "sought to drive an enemy back... an old alliance between the denizens of the city and the Silent Host." Now I understand from Gardens that the Forkrul and K'Chain disappeared for reasons that are not yet explained, but the Jaghut and the T'lan Imass did have a pretty tumultuous relationship (a war, basically). The T'lan Imass emerged victorious in the end. Did Icarium fight the T'lan Imass invaders in this city as a part of that overall conflict? Was there a more personal issue at stake?

Think back to when Kulp, Baudin, Heboric, and Felisin marched through the caves/ruins. IIRC there are hints as to what kind of find event caused the downfall of the denizens of that place and who the T'lan Imass rose up to fight against.

As for the K'Chain, in GotM the T'lan Imass Bonecaster Pran Chole says that "the ice spoke to them with words of death" which might give you an idea of what became of them.

[Burn's Bridge]

Thank you. I skimmed previous chapters and I could only find out that the T'lan Imass, in that old ruined city, had fought against Soletaken and D'ivers. Unless Icarium is a Soletaken or D'ivers, then I'm not sure why Icarium went on a rampage. If I missed something obvious, you can share. In Gardens, I noticed that Raest could put his soul into another body (Mammot). That could be a feature of shapeshifters. Or Azath. Or just Jaghut. Or just Raest. And I don't know why the T'lan Imass fought the shapeshifters anyway. Pretty sure I'm not supposed to know the answers to any of these yet. I've tried to improve the formatting of my future posts as well. I will provide a summary of each scene, followed by questions.

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 16


The Chain of Dogs is preparing to cross the river while Korbolo Dom's forces mobilize nearby. Coltaine refuses to surrender Aren in exchange for a peaceful crossing. Duiker stumbles across the Silanda and its marines who apparently survived the dragon's warren and acquired superhuman strength and endurance (at least when it comes to rowing ships). During a disagreement, Coltaine broke his hand punching Gesler; the warlocks think Gesler has almost ascended. The Silanda will carry wounded soldiers across the river; Duiker refuses to accompany them.

• What does it mean when Nether comes back with black hands, and why does Duiker feel sorry for her?
• Why have the warrens been uncontested for the past three days? Does that mean they are no longer swarming with shapeshifters?
• How did the marines survive the dragon's warren and nearly become Ascendants?

Felisin passes the Book of the Apocalypse to her three companions to read. Leoman sees nothing but blank pages. The Toblakai weeps over some beauty he sees in the pages. Heboric refuses to read the book, but his hands protected him from an assault by the Toblakai during a disagreement. Felisin remarks that his faith is renewed, manifesting in his hands.

Icarium, Mappo, Fiddler, Crokus, Apsalar, Rellock, and Pust all enter the fragmented warren. They come across the maze of roots leading to Tremorlor, and Mappo says he has never seen an Azath manifest itself in this way. Apsalar remarks that she has three kind of memories in her: her own, the wax witch's, and Cotillion's. She says there's a part of Cotillion that sympathizes with Laseen, since she - like him - assassinates for the "greater good." Kellanved and Cotillion used to be friends with Laseen. Mappo is having an internal struggle. He made a vow to the Nameless Ones and his clan Elders to deliver Icarium to an Azath House so the House can capture and eliminate him. But, he can't bear to do that. Icarium senses his struggle and Mappo finally tells Icarium about his rampage. Icarium accepts Mappo's mission and agrees to go to Tremorlor. He says, "My home awaits this prodigal return." Wow. All of Icarium's friends ready their weapons prepare for a fight: "What if Icarium kills the Azath?" They are preparing to fight Icarium just in case. Oh, and Iskaral Pust calls on the five remaining Hounds of Shadow, too. Because Icarium will likely go beast mode again and they'll need god powers to stop him. Some cray cray is about to go down.

• How do Azath normally manifest themselves? What kind of creatures are they? (I recall Ganoes Paran had to help an Azath defeat Raest's Finnest in an alternate realm or something.)
• Why did the Nameless Ones ask Mappo to get rid of Icarium? What are the Nameless One's relationship to the city of the First Empire?
• Why is Tremorlor Icarium's home? Is he an Azath? Somehow related? Is he like Raest, the Jaghut Tyrant?
• I have some general confusion about the whole Path of the Hands thing. Going back to the first chapter, why are Icarium and Mappo even on this journey? At first they looked like they were on the Path of the Hands, and if it's to achieve Ascendancy, then that's great. But we learned that it's for shapeshifters. So that must mean they are shapeshifters too? Then, once they found that Iskaral Pust created a fake path to Tremorlor, why did Icarium just not say, "WTF man, let's blow this whole thing." No, they pressed forward. I get it, Mappo wanted to lure him to the Azath House, but at least Icarium should have taken some objection.
• How did Crokus, Fiddler, and Apsalar know the details of Mappo's plan? They are supposed to use Tremorlor to return to Unta. I don't recall at any point that Mappo revealed his plan to them, and if he did, why they did not object that such a plan involving Icarium would cause a grand inconvenience in their attempts to return to Unta.
• Iskaral Pust says he didn't want the shapeshifters to converge under his temple, but what's the big deal if that happened? I'm starting to wonder if Iskaral Pust's entire motivation all along was to gather the shapeshifters at Tremorlor to take down Icarium, and his motivation for doing so remains unclear.

Finally we go back to the Chain of Dogs. Gesler and the wounded soldiers leave on the Silanda. Sormo tells Duiker that a Jaghut ghost is guiding List in his visions, and he can see that this area was once a site of a long-forgotten war. The Chain of Dogs gets a massive attack from Korbolo Dom but the refugees activate rage mode and overpower his army somehow. Sormo gets killed by arrows and Duiker gets grabbed by someone and blacks out (end chapter) when he starts freaking out at one of the nobility for being a coward behind the refugees.

• Why did the butterflies swarm Sormo when he died? Those damn butterflies seem too numerous and intelligent for their own good. This smells like D'ivers to me. Could be wrong.

That was a heavy chapter. Lots of excitement going on.

[Burn's Bridge]

Friendly reminder that I’m not really seeking spoilerific answers to any of the above... but if I missed anything in Gardens or the first 16 chapters of DG that could provide clues, feel free to point them out!

[worry]

I'll stay away from most of those cuz I think they're RAFO (where F = Find or Figure), but I believe the Nether thing is just a matter of content discussion up to this point, so if you're willing:

Spoiler

IIRC her hands are blackened because she and Nil have to sacrifice one horse (horribly, through sorcery) to power their side of the conflict. It's a pretty brutal act for a kid to have to perform, a real loss of innocence in wartime moment that Duiker clearly comprehends. Not to mention the particular importance horses play in Wickan culture.

[Garak]

Remember when we learned how the warlocks survived? A crow came for their souls (11 in the case of Sormo) - well there weren't any crows nearby in this case so the butterflies had to suffice. Will it work if it's not crows? *shrug*

[Not Noto]

Soulshifting isn't exclusive for any race or entity. It's just very rare in "modern times".
Quick Ben did it on Hairlock in GotM for example. And he got a good number of souls stuffed in that body he make use of now as well.

This post has been edited by Not Noto: 02 July 2018 - 04:29 PM

[Puck]

I'm not quite sure because I've read the entire series so often, but I thiiiiink the reason QB could soul shift Hairloch in GotM is not revealed until MoI, so might want to watch your spoilers there, Noto.

Anyway, regarding why Iccy and Mappo are stomping around the desert all willy-nilly in the beginning of DG, from the first chapter:

Quote

Icarium turned to him with a faint smile. 'I am my own curse, Mappo. I have lived centuries, yet what do I know of my own past? Where are my memories? How can I judge my own life without such knowledge?'
'Some would consider your curse a gift,' Mappo said, a flicker of sadness passing across his features.
'I do not. I view this convergence as an opportunity. It might well provide me with answers. To achieve them, I hope to avoid drawing my weapons, but I shall if I must.'

[Burn's Bridge]

Great clarification everyone. Thanks for answering all the questions you can, given the material I read so far, and for ignoring my questions that would require material from books yet to come.

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 17


Kalam and Salk Elan foil a treasonous ambush from a pirate ship orchestrated by Pormqual's treasurer. As they sail towards Falar (although I think they're making a detour due to a superstition from the First Mate), they notice Adjunct Tavore's Imperial Fleet. The alliance between Kalam and Salk Elan seems shaky. Meanwhile Felisin gets dressed up like Sha'ik and prepares to go with her three companions to the encampment site with Sha'ik's sword (and potential resistance). Entertaining chapter and thankfully fairly straightforward.

[Burn's Bridge]

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 18
Icarium's party makes its way through the maze of roots. Mappo reveals that the Nameless Ones are priests of the Azath, a cult that Apsalar - through Cotillion's knowledge - says should be extinct. Iskaral Pust says the Talons exterminated all the Nameless Ones under orders from the Empire because they opposed Kellanved, specifically Kellanved's passage through Deadhouse. Mappo clarifies that the Nameless Ones from within Malazan borders were eliminated, but not those outside it. Icarium has recurrent dreams of himself on the edge of a Trell town after a catastrophic event, after which he is accompanied by a woman holding a powerful staff (presumably an Azath priestess). He remembers constantly being accompanied by guardians (presumably Trell). Mappo says on rare occasions his tribe was visited by the Nameless ones, which he implies was for the purpose of recruiting guardians, such as Mappo, for Icarium. As they walk through the maze, they sense the convergence of shapeshifters. They encounter Messrenb fighting an enkar'al, but they are taken and killed by the roots. Then they are about to encounter Gryllen.

• I wonder why the Nameless Ones opposed Kellanved.
• I do not know if the Trell town is the same site as Icarium's forgotten rampage against the T'lan Imass 94,000 years ago. Either they are the same, which means T'lan Imass and Trell coexisted, or they are not, which means Icarium had more than one violent incident.

Felisin arrives at the populated oasis and becomes Sha'ik reborn. Heboric mentions that the oasis used to be First Empire, attacked by ancient invaders. All the peasantry submit, but her three High Mages submit after special addresses using Sha'ik's memories. Bidithal abused Sha'ik as a child; she condemns him to the Abyss. Febryl tried to poison her and also fled from Dassem Ultor before the "final battle." L'oric seemed to be the most loyal.

• How ancient are these ancient invaders? I still do not know if the First Empire is made of T'lan Imass or humans.
• I wonder if Febryl opposed or betrayed Dassem. I assume opposed, since Sha'ik opposes the Malazans. I am curious to know more about the encounters of Sha'ik with the Empire before Laseen.

Finally, Fiddler defeats Gryllen by chucking his conch shell and getting some Spiritwalker magic bursting forth. That's great - but how do they know Gryllen was the final boss? What if he's only the mid-boss and they have no consumables left? The Hounds are called off and the party proceeds to Tremorlor.

Epigraph: I'm adding an epigraph section for the chapters. This chapter's epigraph is called The Path, by Trout Sen'al'Bhok'arala, a character I do not know. I stood in a place where all shadows converged the end of the Path of Hands Soletaken and D'ivers through the gates of truth where from the darkness all mysteries emerged. How does it relate to this chapter? It says shadows (House Shadow?) converges with shapeshifters at the end of the Path. Certainly that seemed to happen with the Hounds, Gryllen, and Messrenb. But the true path is supposedly beneath the Shadow Temple, and this epigraph probably refers to that. Interestingly, it says, "through the gates of truth... all mysteries emerged." In other words, Trout did not get what he or she expected, or was deceived.

This post has been edited by Burn's Bridge: 03 July 2018 - 02:24 PM

[Burn's Bridge]

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 19
The results of the previous battle would be called the Day of Pure Blood because of all the blood and bodies that floated in the River Vathar that people keep finding. Despite Duiker's mysterious grabbing, he's fine now. As the Chain of Dogs prepares to proceed south, Corporal List tours Duiker through a part of the Vathar Forest that is a T'lan Imass burial ground. After Coltaine picks a new captain, List takes Duiker further along and shows him a stone of a former Jaghut settlement that dates 100 to 300 thousand years old. He explains that the conflict between the Jaghut and the T'lan Imass was a series of sieges that each lasted centuries. The T'lan Imass pushed back the Jaghut from settlement to settlement until they made their last stand at a tower in a plain beyond the forest. At the war's end, the T'lan Imass carried their "dead" to the Vathar Forest burial ground and placed their skulls and remains not beneath the earth but in the branches of trees. We learn that the T'lan Imass don't actually die, although their physical bodies can be destroyed; they retain their immortal souls bound to their remains. A skull mounted in a tree trunk, for instance, would be a watchman eternally trapped in its prison. Finally, we learn that Corporal List is guided by a male Jaghut ghost that had a special bond, "unique among the Jaghut," to his mate. The children and finally the father came to the woman's aid when she was attacked, and Duiker assumes she was a special Jaghut (presumably because the Jaghut were notoriously selfish).

• I am unclear as to why Corporal List is being guided by a Jaghut ghost.

Kalam is suspicious about the trade vessel that keeps close to the Ragstopper, and also says the winds and current are unusual. He contacts Quick Ben through his special stone, who is in the middle of a fight on Genabackis. Quick Ben warns Kalam that he is in trouble, and to beware that the ship might be in a warren that is causing him confusion. Someone on or nearby the ship could be controlling the warren.

• Kalam and Quick Ben realize something about Fiddler, Tremorlor, and the Path of the Hands, but they don't clarify what.

Mappo decides to not give up Icarium to Tremorlor. The Nameless Ones would have to do it themselves. They are in the middle of a shapeshifter fight; Tremorlor is getting attacked by shapeshifters. Even the Hounds have to fight off a D'ivers of denrabi. Fiddler says Tremorlor is said to contain gods and is worried what happens if it is killed. They run for the door to the Azath House, said to open with enough "audacity," but it won't open and bloodflies are coming after them.

• Tremorlor may be the name of an Azath, instead of the Azath House. I wonder if Tremorlor seeks Icarium for the same reason the Azath House in Darujhistan tried to consume Raest.

Duiker and Lull continue through the Jaghut ruins and find remains of Jaghut children presumably belonging to the family of the ghost that is guiding Corporal Lull. We learn that the Jaghut - except the Tyrants - tried to reason with the T'lan Imass but the innate arrogance of the Jaghut (such as their tendency to view the T'lan Imass as little more significant than insects underfoot) made reasoning fail. The T'lan Imass wanted to eradicate the Jaghut but it was difficult because although they did not flaunt their power, they had tremendous power, in particular creating ice that would swallow continents. This made survival hard for the "Imass" (he does not say T'lan Imass), who had to go through a ritual of immortality to take on the Jaghut.

• The Imass is implied to be the mortal version of the T'lan Imass.
• Jaghut appear to be disembodied ghosts upon death. Jaghut seem to be live forever naturally but can actually die if killed. In contrast, T'lan Imass appear to be souls trapped in their remains. Is this the punishment for the ritual of immortality?
• Numerous references are made to "Hood's Abyss," "Abyss below," the "spirits below," and the "fiery Abyss." This place seems basically like Hell. Although no references are made to the Abyss in this chapter, it would be nice to know how some spirits make it to the Abyss, and how some - like the Jaghut ghost - do not. Perhaps the Abyss only deals with humans.

The Chain of Dogs has run out of water, but the day is saved by the mysterious Karpolan Demesand of the Trygalle Trade Guild on Genabackis. He arrives by warren on extravagant coaches to deliver food and water. He was supposedly sent by Dujek Onearm and the Bridgeburners, which is interesting because I thought Coltaine supported the Malazans, whereas Dujek and the Bridgeburners were outlaws. It turns out that an even greater threat, the Pannion Domin - whatever that is - is causing trouble on Genabackis. Dujek, despite being betrayed by Tayschrenn etc., is now allying once again with the Empire to take on the Pannion Domin. However, because Dujek may have made allies also with Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood due to his defection, then the Empire may have even those forces united with them against the Pannion Domin. Dujek said to Karpolan, "Never underestimate the Empress." Could the threat to kill the Old Guard really have just been an elaborate plot by Laseen and Dujek? Karpolan also hands a crystal necklace to Coltaine made by a mage (Quick Ben) to use in time of dire need. The Chain of Dogs continues south, attacked by Korbolo Dom's army but helped by the tribe of the Khundryl.

• I'd like to learn more about the Khundryl and why they allied with the Wickans.
• I wonder what is the Pannion Domin. I know the Pannion Seer, from the glossary, is a mysterious prophet ruling the lands south of Darujhistan.
• I also would like to know if Duiker's and Coltaine's speculation about Laseen's elaborate plot is true.
• I do not recall the Bridgeburners or Dujek making any formal alliance to Caladan Brood or Anomander Rake, although they all did play roles in preventing the capture of Darujhistan.

Epigraph: Dog Chain, by Thes'soran: The Day of Pure Blood was a gift of the Seven from their tombs of sand. Fortune was a river the glory a gift of the Seven that flowed yellow and crimson across the sky. Thes'soran may be a member of the Chain of Dogs - a refugee or soldier - who credits the Seven with their victory. "Yellow" may refer to the butterflies.

[Slow Ben]

Don’t have time to type more, but you’ll learn all about the Pannion in Memories of Ice.

[Puck]

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

I wonder if Tremorlor seeks Icarium for the same reason the Azath House in Darujhistan tried to consume Raest.[/list]

Pretty much yes. It's a pattern with the Azath Houses and you're supposed to see it.

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

The Imass is implied to be the mortal version of the T'lan Imass.

Yes.

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Jaghut appear to be disembodied ghosts upon death. Jaghut seem to be live forever naturally but can actually die if killed. In contrast, T'lan Imass appear to be souls trapped in their remains. Is this the punishment for the ritual of immortality?

Nice observation. I honestly never noticed the parallels between the Jaghut and T'lan Imass in this regard

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Numerous references are made to "Hood's Abyss," "Abyss below," the "spirits below," and the "fiery Abyss." This place seems basically like Hell. Although no references are made to the Abyss in this chapter, it would be nice to know how some spirits make it to the Abyss, and how some - like the Jaghut ghost - do not. Perhaps the Abyss only deals with humans.[/list]

There's more on this, in particular the whys of Jaghut souls hanging around and who goes where, later in the series. So basically RAFO.

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

I'd like to learn more about the Khundryl and why they allied with the Wickans.

Actually, they say that outright when they speak to Coltaine in this chapter:

Quote

'We have long awaited this day,' the war chief said. He stood in his stirrups and gestured to the south hills. 'Tregyn and Bhilard both, this day.' He waved northward. 'And Can'eld, and Semk, aye, even Tithansi – what's left, that is. The great tribes of the south odhans, yet who among them all is the most powerful? The answer is with this day.'

...and:

Quote

The actions of the Khundryl clans changed all that. For they had come, not to join in the slaughter of Malazans, but to give answer to the one question demanded of their pride and honour.

...it's basically a pissing contest to them and they want to be top dog among the Seven Cities desert tribes and are using the opportunity that all of their enemies are in one place AND some of them already decimated to do some ass kicking. The fact that they have to temporarily ally with the Malazans to get the opportunity seems to be just fine with them. They then find themselves humbled by the bravery of the Wickans and decide those are top dog.

 Burn, on 04 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

• I wonder what is the Pannion Domin. I know the Pannion Seer, from the glossary, is a mysterious prophet ruling the lands south of Darujhistan.
  
• I also would like to know if Duiker's and Coltaine's speculation about Laseen's elaborate plot is true.
  
• I do not recall the Bridgeburners or Dujek making any formal alliance to Caladan Brood or Anomander Rake, although they all did play roles in preventing the capture of Darujhistan.

RAFO. The story is that Memories of Ice was meant to be the second book in the series and SE had written most (?, maybe all? can't remember) of it but the file was lost and there was no back-up (this was in the 90s or early 00s), so instead of rewriting it all right away, he wrote Deadhouse Gates. The two book run parallel to each other and SE was writing DG with the knowledge of what was happening on Genabackis at the same time, hence the clear references to the events there.

[Garak]

Regarding your question about the T'lan Imass and if this is punishment. It is, sorta but not in the traditional sense. Hood did not show up and curse them for their arrogance and deny them entry into his realm. This is the result of their ritual of undeath. Their souls are permanently tied to their bodies, no matter how much damage is done. So if all that's left you is a skull or whatever ... tough luck, you brought this on yourself. Oh yes, the horror.

[Burn's Bridge]

Thanks for the great replies! That’s really unfortunate about SE losing the MOI file, but I think I prefer alternating plots in the first books and like the way it turned out!

[Mako2401]

I love your dedication I unfortunately got bogged down by real life and am still at chapter 4 on memories of ice. I had very different questions about the world than you did, and as I read more I compare this series more and more to Dark Souls i.e. in order to really enjoy it you have to read it twice.

[Burn's Bridge]

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 20
The door to Tremorlor won't open for anyone in Mappo's party except for Moby. Turns out Moby is a demon that, as a Soletaken, can shift into a little bhok'aral. Moby wanted to Ascend via the Path of the Hands (which isn't here), so instead he (along with an animated suit of armor) is going to replace the old guardian of the Azath House - which happens to be a Forkrul Assail they find dead on the floor. Karpolan comes by with a box of Moranth munitions from Quick Ben for Fiddler, the group comes across the corpse of Dassem Ultor's daughter, and then they all leave via the portal to Deadhouse. Moby stays behind.

• This is all that has been revealed about Dassem Ultor so far: he used to be allied with Hood, then Hood "used" his daughter somehow, then after he was done the "First Sword" of the Empire brought her to Tremorlor, then Dassem broke his vow to Hood.
• I wonder who is the First Sword. I don't think it has been revealed yet. First Sword is both a T'lan Imass and a human title for an Imperial Champion.
• I wonder why the First Sword brought Dassem Ultor's daughter to Tremorlor. (It hasn't been revealed yet.)
• Speaking of T'lan Imass and humans, the glossary has a heading called "Peoples (Human and Non-Human). Humans are not on that list. Except T'lan Imass, every race listed there is explicitly designated as non-human. This implies T'lan Imass are human, although this has not yet been revealed or confirmed. If true, whether humans are descendants of the T'lan Imass or simply the Imass remains to be seen.

The Chain of Dogs gets close to Aren and Coltaine plus most of the soldiers don't go any farther. They stay behind to fight the Apocalypse army that is pursuing them. Duiker, Nil, and Nether, a small army of Wickans, and all the refugees go to Aren. (Duiker gets into another scuffle with the noble Nethpara.) For some reason, the Aren soldiers usher the refugees into the city but don't help guard their rear, which is closely pursued by the opposing army. The warlocks at this point have lost their link to Coltaine.

• I am curious if Nil and Nether being able to communicate with Coltaine from a distance implies that Coltaine is a warlock also.

Then there's an interaction between Apt, Panek (the kid she captured), and Cotillion in the Shadow Realm. I found this confusing and I don't know what they're talking about. Cotillion says he has a daughter.

• The boy is surprised that Cotillion walked through walls and trees, and he wonders if Cotillion thinks he walks unseen. Cotillion is impressed at what the boy can see and had always wondered why the Hounds never run straight. I really have no idea what any of that means. I'm assuming I'll get more context later.
• I don't know - or remember - where Apt originally found Panek, or why he was there, or why the kids were being crucified, or why she took him. I also don't know why Apt was originally following Kalam.

Salk Elan reveals himself to be Pearl (I forgot that the Red Blades were following him), wounds Kalam, throws him overboard, and expects Kalam to swim to shore where he will eventually be taken to Laseen. (So that's why they "detoured" to Malaz City. Kalam and Fiddler were originally supposed to go to Unta after dropping off Apsalar, then discuss how to go from Unta to Malaz City). Apt shows up, Pearl throws down a vial to summon a Kendryll'ah demon (dang, these demon vials are handy), and the two battle it out while Pearl leaves and the captain wakes up. With Pearl gone, the captain can think clearly again. Also, the captain and his first mate were supposed to have drowned years ago, and they are supposed to play up that lie (not sure the significance of that). That trading vessel that kept following the Ragstopper had the woman on it who kept following Kalam; she jumped overboard with her horse and that compelled the crew to use sorcery to clear her path of sharks. Yup. Can't say it makes much sense, but there you go.

Epigraph: This is from The Path by Trout Sen'al Bhok'arala: This path's a dire thing, the gate it leads to is like a corpse over which ten thousand nightmares bicker their fruitless claims. Well, the first thing I noticed is that "Bhok'arala" is the plural of "bhok'aral," which is a cliff-dwelling monkey: the same species as Moby in familiar form. Don't know what Sen'al means, but somehow Trout is connected to those monkeys. "Ten thousand nightmares" might refer to the Soletaken and D'ivers, and they're fruitlessly bickering over a corpse because they're bickering over something meaningless. In other words, the Path leads to a false gate, a dead end.

This post has been edited by Burn's Bridge: 06 July 2018 - 01:23 PM

[Burn's Bridge]

Deadhouse Gates - Chapter 21
This was a pretty sad chapter. Sha'ik uses the Whirlwind (the sand pillar) to fast-travel to Aren. Then the armies of Korbolo Dom and Kamist Reloe destroy the 7th army and kill Coltaine too while High Fist Pormqual did nothing because he didn't want to risk his soldiers being outnumbered. It's disheartening and tragic. Duiker couldn't do anything but stand in the tower and watch, along with Nil and Nether. It looks like my suspicions about Coltaine being a warlock were true, because a cloud of ravens tried to claim him. I was initially confused as to why Kamist Reloe and Korbolo Dom wanted to keep the crows away while Coltaine was dying to prevent his soul release, and then I realized it was just torture. No wonder Nether was upset!

Epigraph: Every throne is an arrow butt. This quote from Kellanved simply seems to imply that people in positions of power are targets for opposition!

This post has been edited by Burn's Bridge: 06 July 2018 - 02:49 PM

[Garak]

- Regarding Panek. Him and the other children were being executed for being Malazan. No other reason. Yeah, that's ....... Anyway, Apt rescued them out of compassion.
- Cotillion mentioning a daughter might be a reference to Apsalar. She's not his daughter of course but after the possession thing, their relationship is difficult to describe.
- Any time in this series someone is mentioned as having drowned a longed time ago, chances are good it's one of the Old Guard who abandoned Laseen.