[James Hutton]

 Burn, on 19 June 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

Something called a Jhistal is in Aren.

That is the Jhistal priest of Mael, Mallick Rel. Who, together with Duiker, watched the arrival of Coltaine and the Wickans in Hissar in Chapter 1.

[Slow Ben]

Dude, I think he should figure that out reading the book for the first time, not here.

[Burn's Bridge]

Thanks James, but let’s wait till the end of the novel to clarify things I missed. However feel free to correct me for blatantly wrong things, like if I say, “That male wizard named Apsalar.” Outright corrections are welcome. No worries in this case; it’s minor.

[James Hutton]

Since Mallick Rel was specifically named Jhistal priest in chapter 1, I figured I wasn't spoiling anything. I checked my copy before posting.

But this is your thread, Burn's Bridge. I'll only point out outright mistakes from now on.

[Gorefest]

 Slow Ben, on 20 June 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

Dude, I think he should figure that out reading the book for the first time, not here.

Don't think that is a spoiler because it was already mentioned previously in the book that Mallick Rel is a Jhistal priest. So it's just a friendly reminder.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 21 June 2018 - 10:18 AM

[Burn's Bridge]

I've thought more about the spoiler issue and I've changed my mind. This is a forum after all, not a blog. I'd like anyone reading this thread to be engaged, and if you spot something I miss, it would be fun for you to point it out.
I suggest posting it as a question to me that vaguely asks me to think about something. A good example is, "Regarding X, did you notice anything in chapter Y? " where Y is a chapter I've already read (or section of the novel, or whatever you can remember.)
Or, "What do you mean by X?"
To me this serves as an alert that I might have missed something, but ensures nothing is spoiled. (And of course, outright corrections.)
Thanks.

Here is the last chapter of the Book of Whirlwind.
Whirlwind - Chapter 10


This was a difficult chapter for me to understand, but most of the chapter seemed to be details of the crossing of Coltaine's army, without much overarching story revealed, so this entry will be short. I learned that currently most warrens are infested with D'ivers and Soletaken seeking the Path of the Hands. Sormo seems to be leading multiple warlocks reborn as children. Sormo seems pivotal in this chapter's lore, because he is able to show the Semk Ascendant trapped in ice conjured of Jaghut sorcery. He releases the Ascendant who is torn apart by the spirits. I'm unsure what role Sormo is playing, or how he as access to these visions, or what is actually happening when he does this. Is he in a warren?

Ice seems to be an important element. I think the Jaghut used ice sorcery when they saw humans about to threaten their dominance. The chapter explains the Jaghut ice destroyed the previous monuments and civilization landmarks of the previous races (Forkrul Assail and K'Chain Che'Malle), although it doesn't mention the T'lan Imass. Maybe it was because the T'lan Imass and humans were allied and the Jaghut fought against them both? I did learn that the Emperor allied with T'lan Imass earlier in this novel.

Also interesting is the raising of the zombies. From my understanding, these are Wickans that were killed from an internal clan war (Wickan infighting). The Emperor was supposedly responsible for uniting the Wickans and stopping the infighting.

That's it for the book of Whirlwind. Like I said this chapter was a tough read, so if I missed anything or made some mistakes let me know (especially using the format above). Looks like the next book, called Chain of Dogs, will focus on Coltaine's army.
Until next time!

[Zetubal]

I can see how Sormo's magic, or Wickan magic for that matter, is hard to integrate into the system that other characters use - your confusion is understandable. Couple of things that you've read thus far and that give you clues (no spoilers): For one thing, you correctly mention that he's not a mage but a warlock. Think of all the Malazan mages you've read about thus far. Tayschrenn, Kulp...they all use warren based magic, right? Also, earlier you witnessed Sormo performing a ritual in order to work his magic, which required him to communicate with his environment. You also correctly recognized that the warrens are clogged with Soletaken and D'ivers. Sormo, however, can work his magic.
All of these things give you clues about things that make Wickan magic a lil different.
At the very start of GotM, you already met another character who at that time works magic on Sorry in a way that isn't really comparable to what cadre mages in the Malazan military do.

The world's a big place

[Burn's Bridge]

Very helpful comments, Zetubal. This next chapter may expand on them...

Chain of Dogs - Chapter 11
The chapter begins with some more clues about how warrens might work. Kulp wants to rescue the Silanda by pulling it through his warren, but cannot because Meanas contains no water. This suggests warrens are locations with their own terrain. He also remarks that passing through warrens involves consistent terrain: if you begin on land, or sea, or air, then you will enter the next warren on the same terrain. Perhaps this works by the traveler emerging into the "destination" warren in a location that contains terrain similar to the starting warren. The mental processes of the mages and the sorcery of the warrens might bend and warp and twist the warrens to make this possible, but perhaps the destination warren must have at least some terrain that matches the starting warren; Meanas does not even have a puddle of water. (He mentions Fisher Kel'Tath, a poet, when searching for an elegant solution; this may be the author of some of the Gardens epigraphs, simply named Fisher.)

For some unknown reason, a Soletaken dragon appeared. Kulp seems to refer to it as The Unwelcome. He wondered whether it was a powerful Soletaken: either Anomander Rake or someone named Osric from a far-south continent, but he realized it was neither because the dragon was undead. Kulp made a hole open in the Meanas warren which sent torrents of water gushing in. (From where? Is the Meanas warren enclosed within a water-filled Kurald Emurlahn now?) Then he tried to close it, but he couldn't, so the Soletaken dragon did it for him. Not sure why he tried to make a hole in the first place. Then the dragon opened its own warren, a fire-filled one, and he flew into there and disappeared, and the ship sailed through that. It caught fire and everyone had to jump overboard, landing on the desert floor. This doesn't make much sense to me. They started off in the sea - a real sea - then after fighting the mad wizard and entering the ship in Kurald Emurlahn, and finally the dragon's warren, they physically somehow travelled backwards, away from the sea, over the desert, and up in the air, high enough for them to be above the desert floor but not high enough to kill themselves by jumping off. Also Baudin is a Talon, which was an external group of assassins (as opposed to Claw, an internal group). Both groups were made by Kellanved. For some unexplained reason, Laseen decided to kill the Talons with the Claw, and a few anti-Malazan Talons survived. Supposedly Tavore gave Felisin up in the Unta cull so she could become Adjunct, but sent Baudin (a Talon) to protect her. To me, Tavore should have just refused the position rather than giving up Felisin period. Felisin still vows revenge against Baudin for killing Beneth, and against Tavore. Baudin goes off on his own way after an argument with the group.

Mappo tells Fiddler that the area below the temple has carvings resembling an old version of the Deck, when "Holds" were represented instead of "Houses." Holds may be a more primitive form of the Deck - and perhaps, I may extrapolate, a more primitive form of magic. Warrens of mages seem to belong to one of the Houses; perhaps primitive magic comes from Holds. Is this the magic of warlocks such as Sormo? (As per Zetubal's comment?) Mappo says the shapeshifters are possibly converging at the gate below the temple and Iskaral Pust is trying to prevent that. He also thinks Iskaral Pust wants to use Apsalar to be Sha'ik reborn, to fulfil her prophecy of the Whirlwind. It is also implied that while Cotillion possessed Apsalar, Shadowthrone possessed her father - and her father may be Iskaral Pust's Servant, who is a one-armed fisherman. (Well, he has a younger arm somehow attached now.) They think Shadowthrone plans to have Apsalar born as Sha'ik to lead the rebellion, weaken the Malazans, and then using Cotillion's skills (which are still there even though Cotillion is not), assassinate Laseen. Apsalar and Crokus of course do not want that. We also learn that Icarium is aware Mappo is trying to keep him ignorant and prevent him from reaching is goal.

Finally, some strange things happen with Kalam. He uses a magic rock from Quick Ben to enter the Imperial Warren as a shortcut to Aren. (I think he was saving it for when he was in Unta but decided to use it now. Not sure why he just didn't use it earlier to get right to the throne room.) This alerts the Red Blades (Lostara Yil) who meets a Claw named Pearl; they go into the Imperial Warren to investigate who breached it. Apt is walking around, with Shadowthrone and the Hounds, are walking around Korbolo Dom's encampment, a location where Malazans were murdered. Apt picks up a crucified, eyeless boy and Shadowthrone gives him a cyclops eye like Apt. They then go into the Imperial Warren after Shadowthrone confirms that Iskaral Pust was indeed trying to deter people from using the gate for the convergence of the Path of the Hands. Not sure how when Kalam opened the warren that portals appeared everywhere for people to use.

Lots of lore in that chapter!

[James Hutton]

 Burn, on 24 June 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Chain of Dogs - Chapter 11
The chapter begins with some more clues about how warrens might work. Kulp wants to rescue the Silanda by pulling it through his warren, but cannot because Meanas contains no water. This suggests warrens are locations with their own terrain. He also remarks that passing through warrens involves consistent terrain: if you begin on land, or sea, or air, then you will enter the next warren on the same terrain. Perhaps this works by the traveler emerging into the "destination" warren in a location that contains terrain similar to the starting warren. The mental processes of the mages and the sorcery of the warrens might bend and warp and twist the warrens to make this possible, but perhaps the destination warren must have at least some terrain that matches the starting warren; Meanas does not even have a puddle of water. (He mentions Fisher Kel'Tath, a poet, when searching for an elegant solution; this may be the author of some of the Gardens epigraphs, simply named Fisher.)

For some unknown reason, a Soletaken dragon appeared. Kulp seems to refer to it as The Unwelcome. He wondered whether it was a powerful Soletaken: either Anomander Rake or someone named Osric from a far-south continent, but he realized it was neither because the dragon was undead. Kulp made a hole open in the Meanas warren which sent torrents of water gushing in. (From where? Is the Meanas warren enclosed within a water-filled Kurald Emurlahn now?) Then he tried to close it, but he couldn't, so the Soletaken dragon did it for him. Not sure why he tried to make a hole in the first place. Then the dragon opened its own warren, a fire-filled one, and he flew into there and disappeared, and the ship sailed through that. It caught fire and everyone had to jump overboard, landing on the desert floor. This doesn't make much sense to me. They started off in the sea - a real sea - then after fighting the mad wizard and entering the ship in Kurald Emurlahn, and finally the dragon's warren, they physically somehow travelled backwards, away from the sea, over the desert, and up in the air, high enough for them to be above the desert floor but not high enough to kill themselves by jumping off.

My interpretation is that it went something like this:Kulp is physically aboard the Silanda, but mentally in his warren, Meanas -- which seems to be a different physicality/plane from Kurald Emurlahn where the Silanda is. The undead dragon is flying through the air in the Meanas warren, and Kulp thinks he can use the slipstream of the dragon as comparable enough to flowing water to get the ship from where it is now into Meanas. That's the hole he makes: a portal from Kurald Emurlahn to Meanas. Beside the ship coming through, a lot of water starts flowing through as well, and that water pressure makes it so hard for Kulp to close the hole/portal.

Then the undead dragon decides it doesn't like the ship sailing in its slipstream, so it opens another portal to it's own inferno warren/Chaos (Kulp doesn't know exactly and he's the most knowledgeable on this subject). Dragon flies through the portal, then the ship as well. Everyone jumps or falls overboard, and this somehow made them switch from the inferno-warren to their own world.

Heboric notes that they are on the Seven Cities mainland (not the Otataral Island). How did they move so far? At several points in this section, a lot of movement is implied. First when the portal between Meanas and Kurald Emurlahn already looks far away when Kulp comes above deck after opening the portal, and then literally: "Silanda was moving more swiftly than anything muscle and bone could achieve". Apparently, movement in a warren makes you move to a different place in other warrens/planes/your own world as well. The difference in height might be explained by the difference in height from water level to the dragon's slipstream height. Kulp notes it flying low to the earth in the Meanas warren. This could be taken as at a height at which they can later jump/fall to desert sand without injuries.

[Burn's Bridge]

What a great clarification. Thanks, James!

Chain of Dogs - Chapter 12
The chapter opens with Duiker and Coltaine's chain of refugees fighting their way through Semk and Tithansi warriors. Why does Duiker think Coltaine, Sha'ik, and Laseen ascend to stand alongside the Shrouded One? Who's that - is it Hood? Do you ascend into the House of Death by doing a lot of killing? Also I learned that the "Abyss," or the "Abyss below," whatever that is, is "Hood's Abyss." Duiker is apparently making a "List of the Fallen," and he used to be a soldier until Kellanved asked him to be trained by Toc the Elder (and then Younger) to be a historian. Toc the Elder mysteriously disappeared, of course. They won the battle but they think they received unexpected help from a Claw. A very interesting point is that Sormo and other warlocks used spirits to make the tunnel leading to the site of the battle and also used spirits to help fight. For instance a bear was used to attack the Semk possessed by the Semk god. Also the spirits were used in a previous chapter to come out of the Jaghut ice and destroy the Semk Ascendant. First of all, I am assuming the Semk Ascendant destroyed by the ice spirits and the one possessing the man attacked by the bear are both the same entity. Also, it is subtle, but the one out of the ice is called an Ascendant; the one possessing the man is called a god. Is that an intentional distinction? Regardless, if the entity trapped in the ice and the one possessing the man are truly the same, then how did it survive the onslaught of spirits in Sormo's vision to then possess this guy?

Secondly, Sormo says the god is not dead despite his host being destroyed. Sormo says his magic comes from a time before warrens, which makes me think that "Holds" are associated with Sormo's kind of magic, while "Houses" are associated with warrens. It is interesting because there are Elder Warrens that of course date back to the founding races, three hundred thousand years ago, which makes me wonder if Holds are even older than that. I find warrens difficult to understand - specifically how they work in time and space. I find Sormo's magic much harder to grasp. It seems to focus on spirits (raising zombies, using trapped spirits to kill Ascendants, using spirit bears to attack) and it also seems to bring the past to the present. The raised zombies were mirroring the scenes upon their death from the past, the ice scene with the Semk Ascendant was from the past but brought to the present (and affects the present literally, since the blood splattered on Duiker). So manipulating spirits and entering the past to bring it to the present - these two things seem to be the common theme of Sormo's magic. Also, if this type of magic is actually "Hold" magic, and we do know that there is a "Hold-style" Deck of Dragons carving in the Shadow Temple, then this means the Deck of Dragons - and thus the dragons - is the oldest of all. Thus the order of existence seems to be: 1) dragons, 2) Holds, and warlock-style magic, and the old Deck of Dragons, 3) Elder Races and their warrens, and 4) Houses and warren-style magic, and the new Deck of Dragons. This is all vast speculation and it may be inaccurate, of course. It is just what I'm thinking now.

Finally, Duiker remarks that the "spirits did not look among their own kin," which implies that spirits could switch sides or inhabit different bodies. In fact, he closes his section by observing "wild goats switching sides." In other words, these goats are occupied by spirits, like the bear was, switching sides of the Apocalypse forces vs. Malazans?

We move to Felisin and friends who are in Raraku, and they stumble across a hidden city that seems to be nine thousand years old, preserved by alchemy. We learn that there was once a bond between the T'lan Imass and Soletaken/D'ivers, but the shapeshifters claimed the title of the First Empire. We also learn the undead dragon was a T'lan Imass Bonecaster Soletaken. Fiddler, Crokus, Icarium, and Mappo are chasing after Apsalar and her father Servant (and I still wonder if Servant was ever possessed by Shadowthrone). Kalam and his Malazan friends are making their way through the Imperial Warren toward Aren, and so are Lostara Yil (Red Blade) and her Claw named Pearl. They lose Kalam (who is lost himself) and come out at the site of a battle. I think it is the same battle as earlier in the chapter, and I think Pearl is the Claw that helped out Coltaine's army. Except from this perspective we see Apt kill the person possessed by the Semk god. Oh, I also learned that Kalam got a lone Obelisk card drawn from his last reading, but so did one of his Malazan friends - even though Kalam thinks Obelisk should be inactive in Seven Cities, he wonders if Obelisk refers to Icarium. Obelisk means time, and Icarium represents time (he made the Wheel of Seasons etc.), and "time has no allies," and Icarium's alliance with Mappo may be false... oh and according to the Glossary, Obelisk is also Burn.

There is so much stuff going on. My head is spinning trying to make sense of it all! Two more chapters left in the Chain of Dogs.

[Gorefest]

Regarding the Semk god/ascendant: Sormo's spirits tore him to pieces in the first encounter, but one of those fragments was recovered and consumed by one of the Semk who was subsequently sewn up to contain the fragment.


I like your thinking on the Warrens and Holds, but I will refrain from commenting as it is complicated and more info will undoubtedly follow. This is a long series.

[James Hutton]

 Burn, on 25 June 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

There is so much stuff going on. My head is spinning trying to make sense of it all!

Don't worry, that's completely understandable -- there's a million details in Erikson's dense writing. You are catching on to a lot of things though!

[Zetubal]

Your observations are fascinating as always.
One small thing you potentially overlooked (no spoilers): When you say "Dragons -> Holds -> Elder Races and their Warrens", think back to one specific scene in GotM, when Tattersail causes the magic conflagration in order to avoid being captured by Bellurdan. Couple miles away, Lorn(?) and Onos T'oolan see the pillar of magical light and Tool comments on the nature of the phenomenon by way of namedropping some of the warrens, both elder and current, involved in the conflagration. Among them, he says, is Starvald Demelain. Lorn, who's never heard of that one, asks what kind of warren that's supposed to be, to which Tool replies that it's the (elder) warren of dragons.
I am also a tad confused as to where you draw the line between Holds on the one side and the old DoD on the other..


As for your very first remark: I actually thought Duiker's comment was meant to be metaphorical/cynical. The Shrouded/Hooded one probably refers to Hood, yes. Duiker hyperbolically stresses the extreme amount of death that surrounds Coltaine, Laseen, and Sha'ik, by saying that being the cause of this much death should rightfully earn them a place in Hood's inner circle. Take that with a grain of salt, though, since it's just my personal interpretation.
The ascending and becoming part of a House thingy will be expanded upon in future novels.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 26 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

[Burn's Bridge]

Ah. Great reminders. I’ve cut out some of the assumptions from my last post and just wrote what I can tell with certainty:

• Holds preceded Houses.
• Warlock magic preceded warrens. This does not necessarily mean warlock magic comes from Holds.
• The dragon warren (Starvald Demelain) preceded all other warrens. It is unclear whether dragons themselves are from the time of the Holds.
• From Tiste Andii (Kurald Galain, Dark) came Light, and the Tiste Edur (Kurald Emurlahn). It is unclear if the Tiste Edur represent Light itself.
• From Kurald Emurlahn came Meanas. It is not specified that all of Shadow came from Kurald Emurlahn, just Meanas.
• A deck of some sorts existed since th\e time of the Holds. It is not necessarily a Deck of Dragons.

Chain of Dogs - Chapter 13
Duiker accompanies Coltaine's army in the battle of Gelor Ridge. Kalam arrives in Aren and meets a man who offers him a ride to Unta via a ship Ragstopper. Kalam separates from Keneb and Minala but Minala decides to follow him. Lostara Yil and Pearl arrive in Aren to follow Kalam but are detained since the Red Blades are suspected of treason. Nothing really happened in the way of overarching lore in this chapter. I learned that the warlocks were able to see that Apt's claim of the human familiar was unconventional, and that spirits once again played a role in the battle (including to attack troops, and also for a horse's life force to provide energy for the army to charge up the hill).

One last chapter in Chain of Dogs coming up.

[Zetubal]

It would be really awesome if you kept these short summaries up throughout the entire series (no pressure ). Because then you'd be able to revisit them and empathize with what many fans feel when they read your thoughts and guesses right now. See, sure it's great to get to relive this first-read experience, but in a way your observations also really underline just how thoughtfully Erikson crafted the Malazan books. Pretty much all (and I mean all) of the things you mention and wonder about will be answered and elaborated on in later books - some may even turn out to be major plot points in like books 8. It's just awesome to witness how SE's carefully planted hints are picked up by you...and how early into the series they were planted, if you know what to watch out for.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 27 June 2018 - 08:31 AM

[Burn's Bridge]

Thank you. I will keep it up for as long as possible. I have all of Erikson’s and Esslemont’s novels and short stories on the shelf, waiting to be explored. I appreciate your interest and helpful feedback!

[Puck]

 Zetubal, on 26 June 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

It would be really awesome if you kept these short summaries up throughout the entire series (no pressure ). Because then you'd be able to revisit them and empathize with what many fans feel when they read your thoughts and guesses right now. See, sure it's great to get to relive this first-read experience, but in a way your observations also really underline just how thoughtfully Erikson crafted the Malazan books. Pretty much all (and I mean all) of the things you mention and wonder about will be answered and elaborated on in later books - some may even turn out to be major plot points in like books 8. It's just awesome to witness how SE's carefully early planted hints are picked up by you...and how early into the series they were planted, if you know what to watch out for.

Hear, hear!

...I'm not being very helpful, I know.

[worry]

I'll say it if nobody else will: good thread!

[Burn's Bridge]

Thank you everyone. Here are my thoughts on the final chapter of the Chain of Dogs.

Chain of Dogs - Chapter 14

It was sad when Kulp and Baudin died fighting Gryllen. I do not know Gryllen's motivation for killing them, nor do I know why Messremb came to help fight. All I know is that Felisin, Kulp, and Heboric came across a buried First Empire city (and Baudin showed up somehow), which was the site of a battle involving T'lan Imass and shapeshifters, and now one of the shapeshifters killed two characters.

In this same section, we see the party come across a temple with carvings of an Elder Deck which features Holds instead of Houses. So indeed, there was an old deck, distinct from the Deck of Dragons. In this Deck there are some familiar terms: Death, Life, Dark, Light, and Unaligned. But Heboric's language - "Can you discern Death and Life? And Dark and Light?" - ambiguously suggests some might have once been paired (Death paired with Life, and Dark paired with Light). It's unclear from his words. There is some new terminology as well. In the Elder Deck, one of the Unaligned is the Shapeshifter, not present in the Deck of Dragons. Additionally, the Elder Deck has the Hold of the Beast, flanked by T'lan Imass with an empty throne in that particular carving.

The last bits of the chapter show Fiddler, Crokus, Mappo, and Icarium still in pursuit of Apsalar and Servant, thinking that part of Ammanas's plan was to use Apsalar to be reborn as Sha'ik and also empowered with Cotillion to have a super-assassination-rebellion-combo against Laseen. We finally see an old man and a young woman appear over the body of Sha'ik, and the woman hovers over Sha'ik's body and appears to become her. So Sha'ik is reborn, and I assume it is Apsalar accompanied by Servant, but I am uncertain.
"Beware his hands." That's what the now-Sha'ik says about the man who accompanied him. Does that have something to do with the Path of the Hands? No, probably not; this has nothing to do with shapeshifters. Servant's hands? He has a younger arm. Could it be Heboric? He's known for having ghost hands, but unless that woman was Felisin, it shouldn't be Heboric. I'm not sure what to make of that line.

Onto the final book - Deadhouse Gates!

[Puck]

Nice one. I remember being equally stumped about who it was who became Sha'ik Reborn and her companion. Glad it wasn't just me, though I think it's pretty clear that it's supposed to be ambiguous.