Malazan Empire: Convince me to read this one? - Malazan Empire

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Convince me to read this one?

#21 User is offline   cliftonprince 

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 03:28 AM

OK, thanks to info such as in this thread, I went ahead and read all of Return of the Crimson Guard by Esslemont (not Esselmont!). I enjoyed it somewhat, though not as much as any of the Malazan books by Erikson which I have read. I am glad to have learned the new information in RotCG but I think I would have been just fine without learning that information. In general, the new information, new plot lines, and other different trajectories, in my opinion, did not augment or enhance those pre-existing Erikson plot-lines with which I was familiar, as much as depart from them. This fact isn't a failing of the Esslemont book in and of itself, but it does make it the case that I could only gain Esslemont enjoyment from Esslemont's book, but not Erikson enjoyment from it (so to speak).

The main reason I decided to finish reading it was that I got to like the character Kyle, and wanted to learn more about him. Sadly, he was soon abandoned, except for some perfunctory stabs at resolving his plot-line later in the book. He became a Rosencrantz (or is it Guildenstern?), useful for providing major developments in the motivations of other characters (his magical skills will bring back the Duke of the Guard), but Kyle's own motivations were reduced to secondary and flat and then, ultimately, entirely abandoned with no explanation.

Over all, I got to where I really disliked Esslemont's writing. On the grammatical level, I experienced the "garden path" problem (described in my previous post, above) regularly, as well as other problems in reading. I found the verbal skill of Esslemont to be very poor, even close to inadequate for the task he had set himself. I found several occasions where I simply did not know what the heck he meant by a certain sentence. I have worked in a book-publishing house and, based on that experience, I think I can conclude that Esslemont's typescript was not ever edited in any systematic or careful manner. It was perhaps read through once at best. At our offices, we would have been embarrassed to have produced that many errors, or, more accurately, that many infelicitous constructions. On the more thematic level, I experienced the drop-the-ball phenomenon (as described about Kyle, in the immediately previous paragraph) consistently throughout the book as well (for example, wasn't there a forgotten noble girl escaping on a raft? where did she go? I need a wrap-up please! or at least a hint that the author hasn't FORGOTTEN her, but instead has DELIBERATELY left her location vague; etc.).

I liked some few things, mostly just specific ideas. For example, I enjoyed the concepts of the surf-riders and the guards chained to defending the surf wall against them. The creature Ryllandaras, and the sewer where he was initially imprisoned, were rendered in fascinating manner. We never got adequate description of Ryllandaras, precisely because no human character ever really got a good look at him, since he moves so fast, and this did wonders for making him (it?) seem all the more frightening. I liked the problematic Warren-travel -- each time a group decided to go somewhere by Warren, there was a new issue arising out of some kind of magical problem with the Warren and its inhabitants, so the risks of using that kind of magic were enjoyable to read about. Similarly, I liked the issues with residual Otataral which the mages (rescued from the mines and traveling on the ship) had to cope with. Those sorts of creative world-building specifics were all enjoyable, to me.

And I found Esslemont's descriptions of the common foot-soldier's experiences during battle to be compelling, and his utter refusal to glorify violence (violence itself, as a laudable thing) was quite a strong moral stance for him to take. The sense of the stench and futility of war was well rendered, in a way I find refreshing in this genre, which quite often raises combat arts to a ridiculously sanctified level. In fact, the most perceptive parts of the book, in my experience, were those times when the author pointed out the inevitable duality of any decision made during war, how even the most noble motives can be viewed as corrupt or immoral from a different point of view, how all that slaughter is always a regrettable outcome, how the actual victors are always the slimiest and least noble perpetrators who manage by luck and cruelty to cheat the otherwise rightful heirs out of their otherwise just rewards. This is a position I'd like to agree with, about slaughter and violence; and it's not far from Erikson's position in many ways, as well. That's welcome. But it doesn't make up for the (in my opinion) faulty grammar, abandoned character arcs, and otherwise generally sloppy planning and lack of care.

I give it a very low grade on my personal enjoyment scale. It was too hard to figure out, too often, with too little reward. I would have thrown it away except that I had traveled to a family reunion without anything else to read.

Nevertheless, I thank y'all for contributing to the discussion in this thread, and in some ways I'm "glad" I read it. I set myself the task, chose to undertake it, and then had the fortitude to finish it. I learned a good deal about "bad writing" (of course, by "bad" I mean, "bad, in my personal opinion," naturally) and in a few odd manners I developed greater confidence in my own writing precisely because of my experiences in wading through the Esslemont writing. It wasn't a totally negative experience, just a not-very-good book, to me. Barely enjoyable enough, and certainly not as bad as a poke in the eye or a whack on the head. My eyes aren't bleeding, but I don't relish the challenge of undertaking anything else by Esslemont and I probably won't try.

My next read will be number nine of the Erikson Fallen books, which is (correct me if I'm wrong) Dust of Dreams. I read the summaries (in both of the locations discussed above in this thread) of the other Erikson books that I've finished in the past, though I started getting bored by some of the summaries and therefore didn't take care to read them all at the level of attentiveness they probably deserved. If I start getting lost when I start number nine because I've forgotten something, well, I'll know where to go to double-check on past developments.

This post has been edited by cliftonprince: 08 May 2018 - 03:57 AM

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#22 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:35 AM

Sadly the Kyle thing is a recurring issue with Esslemont. He has quite a few characters throughout the Empire series that seem to exist predominantly to act as a spyglass to view other character's actions. It is one of my bigger issues with ICE's works, because you can spot the characters a mile away and you are just left wondering what the heck the point was of putting the characters in the story in the first place if all they do is just drift in and out of the narrative without affecting the plot or showing some inner change or growth.

Not really sure where the surfriders and the surf wall come from, though. Are you reading the books in English?
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#23 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:51 AM

In defense of ICE though, I think he was faced with several problems that can really dent the quality of work, especially for a beginning author. He had fan expectations through existing books of SE to live up to. They are very ambitious in epicness and have a vast scope. It seems as if ICE has tried to copy that mechanic to make his books 'fit' with the world as readers came to know it through SE. But ICE's strength does not lie in multiple character viewpoints and grand, almost 'Shakespearian' bombastic prose and outlines. By the time he came to realise this himself he was already tied in with the larger concept. I suspect that Night of Knives is probably his original blueprint of how he envisioned his Empire series to roll out, but then from RotCG onwards he tried to switch 'up' to SE levels and he just couldn't jump that gap.

It is just not where he shines. ICE is far better when he can focus on just a few characters and a more 'modest' setting and plot. Night of Knives was set on Malaz Island with only a few characters and a clear outline, and I think it is a very enjoyable read. Similarly, in his new prequel series (with Dancer's Lament and Deadhouse Landing now released) he again uses only a limited number of viewpoints and those books are awesome and lots of fun. So I suspect he has realised himself that there really is no point trying to emulate SE and that he is way better off with just sticking to his own, more downplayed and 'traditional' fantasy format.
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#24 User is offline   cliftonprince 

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 10:12 PM

Thanks for the pointers, Gorefest. Glad to know there's an oeuvre where Esslemont shines more. Might try some of them later. Am halfway through Dust of Dreams right now, loving it.

PS -- My copy of Return of the Crimson Guard is, as far as I know, a normal English version, a Tor Books edition. The introduction of the Stormwall and the Surf-riders is in there somewhere, isn't it?

This post has been edited by cliftonprince: 20 May 2018 - 10:30 PM

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#25 User is offline   Esa1996 

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 10:17 AM

Esslemont's new series is indeed a really enjoyable read. By far his best works to date IMO.


I found ROTCG to be somewhat boring up until the halfway point but the ending made up for it for me. Based on this I'm guessing you're not planning to read the rest of Esslemont's Empire series. IMO NOK and especially ROTCG were the most important of them in terms of the overall plot. Perhaps OST too as it ties up all the loose threads from Toll the Hounds. The rest aren't that relevant though I did find them good enough to read them through. Especially in hindsight now that I've forgotten all the bad parts I'm very happy I did read them through :)

Anyway, even if you decide not to finish the Empire series (And now, having read ROTCG and thus having avoided the spoiler of
Spoiler
, it doesn't matter when you finish it anymore), I'd recommend reading the Path to Ascendancy series. It's quite different from all the other Malazan books but it's really fun to read.
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#26 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 11:43 AM

View Postcliftonprince, on 20 May 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

PS -- My copy of Return of the Crimson Guard is, as far as I know, a normal English version, a Tor Books edition. The introduction of the Stormwall and the Surf-riders is in there somewhere, isn't it?


It is called the Stormwall though, not the surf-wall, and the entities are called Stormriders, not surf-riders. Which is why I thought I'd check, as translation issues might be a potential reason for some of the disjointed things you encountered.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 21 May 2018 - 11:43 AM

Yesterday, upon the stair, I saw a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
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#27 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 07:11 PM

I call them The Surfy Boys.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#28 User is offline   cliftonprince 

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 04:35 AM

Surf vs. storm, gotcha, my inaccuracy sorry.
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