[Blend]

Imperial Historian, on 26 June 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 26 June 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

@ Gnaw:

Did you gain 4 or 5 CTs? Because you said 4 but then apparently added five to your pool.

Based on the planets exhausted 5 but the final numbers don't add up. I think he should be on 2/4/2 but he's on 1/4/0 so I have no idea.

He was at 1/2/2 according to his previous game thread post.

According to his most recent post he added 2 to Tactical, 2 to Fleet, and 1 to Strategy, putting him at 3/4/3

He then used 1 Strategy (Tech secondary) and 1 Tactical.

So he should be at 2/4/2 by my count.

Unless he didn't have the right numbers on his previous post.

[D'rek]

Blend, on 26 June 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

It has been interesting playing this game. I'd really like to try it with the regular maximum of 6 players. If we had 6 players, we'd have more space to stretch out and move before having to come into conflict with others. At this point in the game, it's unrealistic for anyone to be able to achieve many of the "own X amount of planets with X requisite" objectives, because it's difficult to take systems, but even more difficult with the way action economy is built to be able to then hold the planets once you've taken them.

That's been MY major downfall, I think. Hacan are just not militarily minded, and, frankly, even though I've been able to finagle some pretty good deals, my corner of the galaxy is very resource/influence poor, so I haven't really been able to ever get an upper hand in anything. If it hadn't been for Twelve and my alliance, I wouldn't have held any real power at any point in this game. I'm able to put together fleets that allow me to take systems, but I can never hold them because someone else has always got a fleet somewhere else nearby to just take it back with. Heck, if it weren't for his ExoTriremes, Tapper would have been a lot less likely to keep Lodor last round.

I hope that next game we play, we can make it just a 6 player game, maybe two of them going at once or something, or two 4-5 player games. I'd like to give this a shot with less players so that everyone can experience the full spectrum of abilities the way they're meant to be balance-wise. I think if we had an extra ring of hexes, THAT would be more appropriate for an 8-9 player game.

This game DOES have an extra ring of hexes. The standard 6-player game only has 3 rings:




If you were playing ordinary TI 4th edition with 6 players, there'd be 30 non-HW/MR systems (approx. 3 planetary + 1 empty + 1 hazardous system per player) and about 5 non-HW/MR planets per player (5.3 if every planet tile if none of the unused tiles had planets). In this game you've got 48 non-HW/MR system (still approx. 3 planetary + 1 empty + 1 hazardous per player) and 42 non-HW/MR planets (4.6 per player). That sounds a bit worse, but the amount of resources/influence of the added planets is higher than average.

Fourth edition standard includes 2 of every tech specialty, while this map has 3 of every specialty so that has remained exactly even.

Number of traversible systems between each homeworld would be at least 2 in a 6-player standard game, and it's the same here. I wasn't able to give every player 3 entire systems that

You're saying you think you should have had more resources, but grabbing 7 resources and 2 tech specialties outside of your home system and holding them for most of the game is significantly above average in a standard game of TI, too...

[D'rek]

Was at 0/2/0

- Leadership: exhaust Maaluuk, Dal Bootha, Rex, Corneeq, Mansa, -2TG +4CT +5CT 2 fleet, 2 tactical, 1 strategy

2/4/1

Tech 2ry

2/4/0

Tactical

1/4/0

--------

It works, it should just say +5CT instead of +4

[Gnaw]

D, on 26 June 2018 - 06:33 PM, said:

Was at 0/2/0

- Leadership: exhaust Maaluuk, Dal Bootha, Rex, Corneeq, Mansa, -2TG +4CT +5CT 2 fleet, 2 tactical, 1 strategy

2/4/1

Tech 2ry

2/4/0

Tactical

1/4/0

--------

It works, it should just say +5CT instead of +4

Yeah that. Also I didn’t spend the 4 resources for the tech. Doh. Fixing that now.

[Blend]

D, on 26 June 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

Blend, on 26 June 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

It has been interesting playing this game. I'd really like to try it with the regular maximum of 6 players. If we had 6 players, we'd have more space to stretch out and move before having to come into conflict with others. At this point in the game, it's unrealistic for anyone to be able to achieve many of the "own X amount of planets with X requisite" objectives, because it's difficult to take systems, but even more difficult with the way action economy is built to be able to then hold the planets once you've taken them.

That's been MY major downfall, I think. Hacan are just not militarily minded, and, frankly, even though I've been able to finagle some pretty good deals, my corner of the galaxy is very resource/influence poor, so I haven't really been able to ever get an upper hand in anything. If it hadn't been for Twelve and my alliance, I wouldn't have held any real power at any point in this game. I'm able to put together fleets that allow me to take systems, but I can never hold them because someone else has always got a fleet somewhere else nearby to just take it back with. Heck, if it weren't for his ExoTriremes, Tapper would have been a lot less likely to keep Lodor last round.

I hope that next game we play, we can make it just a 6 player game, maybe two of them going at once or something, or two 4-5 player games. I'd like to give this a shot with less players so that everyone can experience the full spectrum of abilities the way they're meant to be balance-wise. I think if we had an extra ring of hexes, THAT would be more appropriate for an 8-9 player game.

This game DOES have an extra ring of hexes. The standard 6-player game only has 3 rings:




If you were playing ordinary TI 4th edition with 6 players, there'd be 30 non-HW/MR systems (approx. 3 planetary + 1 empty + 1 hazardous system per player) and about 5 non-HW/MR planets per player (5.3 if every planet tile if none of the unused tiles had planets). In this game you've got 48 non-HW/MR system (still approx. 3 planetary + 1 empty + 1 hazardous per player) and 42 non-HW/MR planets (4.6 per player). That sounds a bit worse, but the amount of resources/influence of the added planets is higher than average.

Fourth edition standard includes 2 of every tech specialty, while this map has 3 of every specialty so that has remained exactly even.

Number of traversible systems between each homeworld would be at least 2 in a 6-player standard game, and it's the same here. I wasn't able to give every player 3 entire systems that

You're saying you think you should have had more resources, but grabbing 7 resources and 2 tech specialties outside of your home system and holding them for most of the game is significantly above average in a standard game of TI, too...

Wow, that's interesting! I didn't realize we had added an extra ring!

I'd still like to see what it's like in a game that's as close to original as possible in terms of balance, but according to your breakdown above, this is much closer to that than I thought. It just has always felt so damn crowded, and I do find it oddly difficult to actually achieve many of the available objectives.

I was saying what I said about resources by comparing what I had and what was within reach for me compared to everyone else. Throughout the entire game I've felt as if I've had access to less of everything (except TGs, although even here it's only to a degree... without my production biomes and my considerable commodities, I wouldn't have had much in terms of trading power) than anyone else - less resources (the most I've had at once was 10, while I've seen others with 15-16 pretty regularly), certainly less influence (I've never had more than 6 votes, while I've seen most people with over 11-12 most of the game and sometimes in the 20s), and less access to CTs in general. I thought that was because we had less space to stretch out in than a 5 or 6 player game would have, but that's not the case. Guess it was just luck of the draw, and people's animosity towards my alliance with Twelve.

[D'rek]

I tried to balance out the starting regions as much as possible, too. Everyone's immediate adjacent 3 planets (4 in ItGnaw's case) had 4-6 resources and usually 3-5 influence, and then a bit of adjusting back and forth depending on spots that were more stuck in a corner, had more tech specialties, were more/less defensible, planet-per-system density, and how nicely the res/inf were divided across the planets. E.g. Morgoth's homeworld is harder to defend than most, and his route to Mecatol Rex is one of the worst, so his planets have a really easy-to-use distribution of res and inf. IH also has well-spread res/inf distribution but his homeworld has only 2 approach paths so no adjacent tech specialties and only a 5/4 total.

It's also worth noting I made the whole map up with generic homeworld positions before randomly assigning you to them.

Anyways, as Hacan, you would feel like you have less planetary res/inf than everyone else no matter where you started, because you're Hacan. Your home system has a total of 3 resources and 2 influence, which you can't even all use because 1 of each of those are shared on Hercant. Hacan don't win by building or fighting or voting themselves, any more than Sardakk win by being peaceful or Creuss win by turtling or Mentak win by being nice to people.

[Blend]

D, on 26 June 2018 - 07:50 PM, said:

I tried to balance out the starting regions as much as possible, too. Everyone's immediate adjacent 3 planets (4 in ItGnaw's case) had 4-6 resources and usually 3-5 influence, and then a bit of adjusting back and forth depending on spots that were more stuck in a corner, had more tech specialties, were more/less defensible, planet-per-system density, and how nicely the res/inf were divided across the planets. E.g. Morgoth's homeworld is harder to defend than most, and his route to Mecatol Rex is one of the worst, so his planets have a really easy-to-use distribution of res and inf. IH also has well-spread res/inf distribution but his homeworld has only 2 approach paths so no adjacent tech specialties and only a 5/4 total.

It's also worth noting I made the whole map up with generic homeworld positions before randomly assigning you to them.

Anyways, as Hacan, you would feel like you have less planetary res/inf than everyone else no matter where you started, because you're Hacan. Your home system has a total of 3 resources and 2 influence, which you can't even all use because 1 of each of those are shared on Hercant. Hacan don't win by building or fighting or voting themselves, any more than Sardakk win by being peaceful or Creuss win by turtling or Mentak win by being nice to people.

I guess I just never understood how I'm supposed to even achieve some of the Public Objectives without being able to fight and take planets and control at least SOME of the votes.

I've done the ones where I can spend resources/TGs, but so has pretty much everyone else. Granted, there are very few votes that didn't go the way I wanted them to go anyway, so that didn't really affect my game. I'm set up to get one of the current 2 VP objectives, but that's about the end of what I'll be able to afford.

I will not be able to keep control of 6 non home system planets for long enough to claim that (unless I somehow get my hands on Imperial and pull a couple fast ones), I don't see how anyone would ever be able to claim the Galactic Trust one - people are scrambling now and no one seems any closer to achieving that than they were at the beginning of the round.

I suppose I could just do nothing next round and claim the 3 CT objective, but a round of doing nothing means, well, I've done nothing.

From what I've seen of the unused objectives, well, let's just say that there are maybe one or two that I have any chance of actually being able to claim IF they happen to come up. I certainly didn't have very good luck with my Secret Objective pulls either.

But yeah, all that to say that I really want to play some more games of this, see how it rolls out with original balancing, and, frankly, just see how the game changes when played with a different race, so hoping we can figure something out after this game to continue playing!

[Blend]

I realize I may sound like I'm being whiny or judgmental about the effort you put in, D'rek, with my above posts. That's not at all my intention, just talking a bit about my impressions of where the game is currently at, and my experience with it so far! All in all, I think you're doing a great job, and I *am* very much enjoying the game. I hope to play a few more rounds to see how the meta works differently with different races, as I haven't been that impressed with the Hacan, particularly given they're meant to be one of the more popular races.

[D'rek]

Ya, don't worry, I'm not taking any of it personally I know what you mean. And everyone is going to have playstyles they like/dislike or are good/bad at, and different races require different playstyles to be sure. Plus it *is* the first game for most of you, and there's definitely a huge learning curve in the first few (or dozen) rounds.

[Tattersail_]

That went better than expected to be fair.

[Imperial Historian]

I have been really impressed by the balance of this game, yes the objectives are deliberately difficult to obtain but that's part of the fun, the choice between obtaining vp and improving board position is a constant tactical delight. All the races have excelled at different portions of the game , but the metagame of people attacking the leaders has meant no-one has really run away with the game. Diplomacy not board position has been the most important distortion of the game, the monopolisation of the speaker token on one side of the board for most of the game has meant it's been more of a struggle for blend Nico and i picking up the dregs. I've felt far behind the curve for most of the game and wished I was X other race at least once/started somewhere else but im sure everyone has felt the same. Would certainly love to play more.

I think the biggest change from the main game is being assured of all the secondaries which I think makes a big difference in terms of planning! Imagine if no-one took warfare for example!

[Khellendros]

Tatts' Carrier and Dreadnaught appear to have been destroyed twice?

[Tattersail_]

Khellendros, on 26 June 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

Tatts' Carrier and Dreadnaught appear to have been destroyed twice?

Incidentally I've just pmd D'rek about it. My fighters should have went first then dread and carrier so I was asking that question

[D'rek]

Khellendros, on 26 June 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

Tatts' Carrier and Dreadnaught appear to have been destroyed twice?

Should have been Fighters the 2nd time. Fixed.

(@Tatts - Had to be Carrier and Dread the first time, because of Graviton Laser System)

[Gnaw]

"Gnaw takes 1 hits. HCFighter destroyed."

He’s retreating; use sustain damage on one of the dreads instead please.

[D'rek]

Gnaw, on 26 June 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

"Gnaw takes 1 hits. HCFighter destroyed."

He’s retreating; use sustain damage on one of the dreads instead please.

ok!

[Blend]

Imperial Historian, on 26 June 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

I think the biggest change from the main game is being assured of all the secondaries which I think makes a big difference in terms of planning! Imagine if no-one took warfare for example!

This is definitely another aspect of the game I'd like to try a smaller number of players in a game for, too, though I expect that just means more rounds so that people can manoeuvre themselves into place or wait for that right card to be available, or waiting one more round so there are more TGs sitting on an unused one.

[twelve]

Nico we still good for my racial pn for your 4 trade goods no pillage deal? I need to know for my next action. Also I'm assuming you will be using it as soon as I research upgraded fighter. If so would you (or anyone else for that matter) want to trade for it? I'm taking offers.

This post has been edited by twelve: 26 June 2018 - 10:58 PM

[Blend]

twelve, on 26 June 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

Nico we still good for my racial pn for your 4 trade goods no pillage deal? I need to know for my next action. Also I'm assuming you will be using it as soon as I research upgraded fighter. If so would you (or anyone else for that matter) want to trade for it? I'm taking offers.

Always want it over here. My Trade Agreement is on the table.

[Blend]

Blend, on 26 June 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

twelve, on 26 June 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

Nico we still good for my racial pn for your 4 trade goods no pillage deal? I need to know for my next action. Also I'm assuming you will be using it as soon as I research upgraded fighter. If so would you (or anyone else for that matter) want to trade for it? I'm taking offers.

Always want it over here. My Trade Agreement is on the table.

You know, assuming you're thinking of researching something I don't already have next round.