Malazan Empire: Twilight Imperium (I) - Chatty Thread - Malazan Empire

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Twilight Imperium (I) - Chatty Thread

#181 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:11 PM

View PostTapper, on 15 April 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:

View PostGnaw, on 15 April 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

Hmm. How many resources do we start with?

Tapper, we might be interested in trading 2 commodities rather than 1.

Khell could theoretically gain an advantage by using his technology card right now and I'd like to have the resources to use the secondary ability.

Edit: make that we would prefer to trade 2 commodities.

We can trade two Commodities, sure. I previously agreed to trade one to Morgoth, so I won't go higher than two.
Are we agreed?


Agreed.
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#182 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:11 PM

View PostD, on 15 April 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

To be clear, no one actually has any commodities at the moment (hence zeroes in the "Goods: 0/x C | 0 TG" part of your statuses) but you will all have the opportunity to acquire some via the Trade primary/secondary in every round.


Oh
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#183 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:25 AM

I've updated the map in the first post of the game thread. Waiting on Blend currently. Feel free to send me provisionals that I'll process when it's your turn!

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#184 User is offline   Gnaw 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:59 AM

View PostD, on 16 April 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

I've updated the map in the first post of the game thread. Waiting on Blend currently. Feel free to send me provisionals that I'll process when it's your turn!


Oh gawd. Flashback to Eclipse: 27 different game maps in my photo folder. Per round.
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#185 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:14 AM

Reading the game thread. Am I misunderstanding what a tactiCal action allows you to do? I thought your first action is to just activate a system then play goes in initiative order. Then on your next turn you move and then on your next turn you do something else that I forgot what it is but you get the point. Or is all those wrap up all in one action?
I don't know what I'm doing but it sounds good.
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#186 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:27 AM

Apologies for the wait, I have a pretty good idea what I want to do, but I will have to review everything a little more before I actually commit to anything. Will do this asap tomorrow morning as I am heading to bed right now!
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#187 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:58 AM

View Posttwelve, on 16 April 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

Reading the game thread. Am I misunderstanding what a tactiCal action allows you to do? I thought your first action is to just activate a system then play goes in initiative order. Then on your next turn you move and then on your next turn you do something else that I forgot what it is but you get the point. Or is all those wrap up all in one action?

Per the Learn to Play rules, when you take a Tactical, you can take any of the five steps of a Tactical, in the order they arw described in.

Two of the five are mandatory: you MUST activate step 1) and do Space Combat (step 3, but of coursr only if there are other ships present), but three are not: you MAY Move to the system (step 2), do ground combat on its planets (step 4) and/or Produce in the system (step 5).

(Wait for D'rek to confirm, though: it wouldn't be my first wrong assumption, see Fighters and Commodities....).
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#188 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:18 AM

View PostTapper, on 16 April 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

View Posttwelve, on 16 April 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

Reading the game thread. Am I misunderstanding what a tactiCal action allows you to do? I thought your first action is to just activate a system then play goes in initiative order. Then on your next turn you move and then on your next turn you do something else that I forgot what it is but you get the point. Or is all those wrap up all in one action?

Per the Learn to Play rules, when you take a Tactical, you can take any of the five steps of a Tactical, in the order they arw described in.

Two of the five are mandatory: you MUST activate step 1) and do Space Combat (step 3, but of coursr only if there are other ships present), but three are not: you MAY Move to the system (step 2), do ground combat on its planets (step 4) and/or Produce in the system (step 5).

(Wait for D'rek to confirm, though: it wouldn't be my first wrong assumption, see Fighters and Commodities....).


You've got it!

Every Tactical Action has to go through the "paperwork" of passing through all 5 stages and all the sub-steps therein, every time, and always in the same order! BUT, when you get to (2) Movement you can choose to move 0 ships into the activated system just like you could choose to move 8 ships (if you have enough fleet supply) (though even if you move 0 ships the PDS steps can still occur against ships that are already in the system). When you get to (4) Invasion you can invade as many planets in the system as you want, including you can choose to do 0 invasions. When you get to (5) Production the step happens one way or another but you can choose not to produce anything in the system (and might not even have any units that can produce there).


Thematically, the reason all of these are bundled together into one big Tactical Action is because it locks ships into only moving once per round and makes it so that ships can't be built and move/attack all in one round, either. Building a Dreadnought takes time and flying through space takes time! Once you do that one attack with a Dreadnought it gets "locked down" by having placed the command token in the system during the Activation stage and it can't get used again this round... though of course there's strategy cards and action cards that let you overwrite those limitations in certain ways.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#189 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:26 AM

So one action contains all those things. And when my turn comes back around I could do that all over again if I have enough command tokens?
I don't know what I'm doing but it sounds good.
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#190 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:26 AM

If I don't try and move ships that I have already moves of course.
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#191 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:12 AM

View Posttwelve, on 16 April 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

So one action contains all those things. And when my turn comes back around I could do that all over again if I have enough command tokens?

Yep - the command tokens need to be in the Tactical pool, though.
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#192 User is offline   twelve 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:14 AM

I think I need to rethink my strategy for this rouND now
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#193 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:06 AM

I'm sure everyone else has already understood this, but just in case, like me, you didn't realise this before:

Any command tokens you put on the board are NOT returned to you at the end of the round - they go back into your supply instead. The only tokens you automatically get are the ones you receive in the status phase. So it would be very easy to run out of command tokens if you're not careful with them/take the appropriate actions.
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#194 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:27 AM

View Posttwelve, on 16 April 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think I need to rethink my strategy for this rouND now

I had the same sinking feeling earlier on when I started thinking what I want to do, versus what I can afford.

With regard to building (I assume you want some Infantry to at the least claim both of your adjacent systems fully?): don't forget that the Second of Warfare allows you to build without activating your home system (and the token for it comes from your Strategy pool, though). Also, the Second of Diplomacy will at some point allow you to refresh 2 exhausted planets (whether your home system or colonized planets). Neither will remove Command Tokens, though.
The question is what order these cards will be played in.


I might be totally off (which would be a lot of fun), but:

Timing of Warfare
IH won't get the Warfare secondary, so he couldn't care less when it is activated for the purpose of building.
What he does care about, is that Warfare is a set-up action (+1 movement), so he needs at the least 1 Tactical CT available after playing it - with 3 Tactical CTs in his pool, this means at the latest when he has 1 left.
He also has 2 Carriers, so he's likely looking at Move ships --> use Warfare on Carrier --> Move ships or use Warfare on Carrier --> Move ships --> Move ships

If he wants to research, he also needs to have CT for that, and either have
a) Trade played (but not Diplomacy) and at the least 1 Trade Good (as his home system has only 3 production),
:D or have colonized a planet with 1 production and have Diplomacy played before Technology is activated.
If he wants to build (perhaps in addition to research, perhaps foregoing research) it means he needs to move all the ships out of his home system before he can activate it for the build, which means using Warfare and its move before activating the HS.
If he does not want to research but plans a build, then he might still want to have a system (Gwynan?) colonized before Diplomacy hits.

Timing of Diplomacy
For Tatts (who refreshes a system, not planets: as such, it doesn't really matter if he picks Creuss or Star Point-New Albion, both give him 4 production and 2 influence) the preferred order is either Diplomacy --> Warfare for 8 resources to build with in Creuss (that build would likely include at the least a second Carrier that can then still move), or Technology/Warfare --> Diplomacy --> Warfare/Technology, using 4 production for a tech, refreshing a system and also spending 4 points to build with: a Carrier and maybe 2 Fighters?
Basically, Tatts (and most of us) benefit the least if Technology and Warfare are played in the same round, and Diplomacy only in the round after that: he wants to use Diplomacy in between the other two. Trade being activated before Technology can possibly mitigate this, but it's a big maybe.

Timing of Research
Khell has the luxury of being able to see what IH does with Warfare before making his decision.
If Warfare is played immediately, he could use the Secondary of Warfare, then play Technology immediately. Everyone else (except you, as you use the Primary of Technology), would have to choose if we want to pay with production for the secondary of Warfare or the secondary of Technology, because the Secondary of Diplomacy would arrive after these.
In addition, if Trade is activated before Technology, Khell might (with 2 Trade Goods) even get 2 researches from the Primary, but he'd have to forego Warfare then.
Alternatively he can opt to use the Secondary of Warfare and play a Tactical first in order to colonize a planet on his first action, so that he has 2 planets to then refresh with Diplomacy, one of which is his home planet, after which he can probably still afford 2 technologies.

If Warfare is not played but Trade is played and he has 2 TG, he can gamble that Diplomacy will be used by Tatts to be able to profit from both Technology and Warfare, so he can play Technology and use his Home system and 2 TGs for 2 Technologies, then refresh through the Secondary of Diplomacy to allow him (and everyone else) to also use Warfare.
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#195 User is offline   Tapper 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:30 AM

I already love this game. I am not sure my wife thinks it's a good thing that I am loving this game, though.
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#196 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:39 AM

View PostKhellendros, on 16 April 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

I'm sure everyone else has already understood this, but just in case, like me, you didn't realise this before:

Any command tokens you put on the board are NOT returned to you at the end of the round - they go back into your supply instead. The only tokens you automatically get are the ones you receive in the status phase. So it would be very easy to run out of command tokens if you're not careful with them/take the appropriate actions.


What do you mean? I just went to check and

Spoiler


This means you get two back if you use them all plus whatever was in your fleet supply. So starting round 2 you may only have 5 command tokens that you can put in your pools of Tactic/strategic?fleet.

This right?
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#197 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:42 AM

View PostTattersail_, on 16 April 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 16 April 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

I'm sure everyone else has already understood this, but just in case, like me, you didn't realise this before:

Any command tokens you put on the board are NOT returned to you at the end of the round - they go back into your supply instead. The only tokens you automatically get are the ones you receive in the status phase. So it would be very easy to run out of command tokens if you're not careful with them/take the appropriate actions.


What do you mean? I just went to check and

Spoiler


This means you get two back if you use them all plus whatever was in your fleet supply. So starting round 2 you may only have 5 command tokens that you can put in your pools of Tactic/strategic?fleet.

This right?


Yep.

Edit: Unless you do actions which will result in you getting extra tokens.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 16 April 2018 - 10:43 AM

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#198 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:05 AM

@twelve:

If/when you choose to do your Trade strategic action, if you choose me (i.e. your neighbour) as one of those who can replenish commodities for free, I will then agree to do a 2:2 trade deal with you when we border each other - how's that sound to you?
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#199 User is offline   Tattersail_ 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:07 AM

View PostTapper, on 16 April 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View Posttwelve, on 16 April 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think I need to rethink my strategy for this rouND now

I had the same sinking feeling earlier on when I started thinking what I want to do, versus what I can afford.



You took leadership didn't you? So you get 3 more tokens than the rest of us.

What would happen if Twelve pops trade, IH pops Warfare and Khell pops Tech all in the same round? Would you be able to pick up any of them or just one?

Quote


Timing of Diplomacy
For Tatts (who refreshes a system, not planets: as such, it doesn't really matter if he picks Creuss or Star Point-New Albion, both give him 4 production and 2 influence) the preferred order is either Diplomacy --> Warfare for 8 resources to build with in Creuss (that build would likely include at the least a second Carrier that can then still move), or Technology/Warfare --> Diplomacy --> Warfare/Technology, using 4 production for a tech, refreshing a system and also spending 4 points to build with: a Carrier and maybe 2 Fighters?



regardless if I use Diplomacy next turn or at the end of the round I will have 8 resources to work with, it won't go up or down because that is the max I have in a system. I'm not sure both resource and influence get filled though. Say I refreshed Starpoint/New Albion, I only get to choose between resources/influence or green tech.

Quote

Basically, Tatts (and most of us) benefit the least if Technology and Warfare are played in the same round, and Diplomacy only in the round after that: he wants to use Diplomacy in between the other two. Trade being activated before Technology can possibly mitigate this, but it's a big maybe.
How does trade affect anything here? Replenish commodities are not your resources or influence, they are useless to you unless traded away but that still shouldn't affect diplomacy.
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#200 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:17 AM

View PostKhellendros, on 16 April 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

@twelve:

If/when you choose to do your Trade strategic action, if you choose me (i.e. your neighbour) as one of those who can replenish commodities for free, I will then agree to do a 2:2 trade deal with you when we border each other - how's that sound to you?



To expand upon this, basically I'm thinking if you move to Quecen'n-Rarron this turn, and I move to Lazar-Sakulag on mine, then next turn you can do the trade action and we can then have sweet sweet trade goods (you'll have 5 extra, and I'll have 2 extra).


Edit: by extra I mean in addition to your planetary resources.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 16 April 2018 - 11:20 AM

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