Help
Isnt the traveller someone new whos not been mentioned before because im sure apsalar was shocked to find out that when kellanved and dancer started out there was the three of them and not just the two like everyone thought
The old guard - who is who?
#42
caladanbrood 
- Ugly on the Inside
-
- Group: Team Quick Ben
- Posts: 10,819
- Joined: 07-January 03
- Location:Manchester, UK
Posted 17 September 2005 - 01:19 AM
Spoiler
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#43
Tiste Simeon
- Faith, Heavy Metal & Bacon
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 12,597
- Joined: 08-October 04
- Location:T'North
Posted 20 September 2005 - 02:47 PM
This is true, herr brood, but it hasn't fully been proven yet has it...
A Haunting Poem
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
#45
Tenaka Khan
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 494
- Joined: 23-January 03
Posted 21 September 2005 - 11:02 AM
NoK spoiler
Spoiler
). There was this one scene where the members of the First Sword part ways with Ultor and he says that he's going to 'travel west'. okay, it might be just a phrase, but the choice of words is either a strong hint or a cruel trap laid out for us poor confused readers....
#46
caladanbrood
- Ugly on the Inside
-
- Group: Team Quick Ben
- Posts: 10,819
- Joined: 07-January 03
- Location:Manchester, UK
Posted 21 September 2005 - 01:33 PM
Iron Bars said:
He is and will probalby stay a non-believer untill SE says it is true.
Indeed. I don't personally believe it, I was just pointing out what ,ost people think;)
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#47
Tiste Simeon
- Faith, Heavy Metal & Bacon
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 12,597
- Joined: 08-October 04
- Location:T'North
Posted 29 September 2005 - 01:12 PM
The question is, in which book will we find out. Methinks perhaps the next one, as it is in the same time/place (more or less) as HOC, where Traveller first appeared, and that leads me to assume that we may be seeing him again... of course, my assumptions have been wrong in the past... many times...
A Haunting Poem
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
#48
Cluracan AbSylvas
- Lieutenant
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 131
- Joined: 28-August 03
- Location:Ontario Hinterlands
Posted 01 October 2005 - 04:11 PM
Kellanved's Family... As per Admiral "I haven't drowned yet" Nok:
Kellanved, Dancer, Nok, Ameron, Dujek, Hawl... all together prior to gaining access to Deadhouse. Dancer recruited Cartheron Crust and Urko, as well as Surly. Toc the Elder, Dassem, Tayschrenn and Duiker followed. Nok's last thought follows.
"The family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. Swiftly done, with minimal losses..."
HOC TPB pp.209
So that's the family... the "Old Guard" title is still up for debate and interpretation.
-- Clu
Kellanved, Dancer, Nok, Ameron, Dujek, Hawl... all together prior to gaining access to Deadhouse. Dancer recruited Cartheron Crust and Urko, as well as Surly. Toc the Elder, Dassem, Tayschrenn and Duiker followed. Nok's last thought follows.
"The family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. Swiftly done, with minimal losses..."
HOC TPB pp.209
So that's the family... the "Old Guard" title is still up for debate and interpretation.
-- Clu
#50 Guest_recked_it_*
Posted 02 October 2005 - 05:46 PM
I've got the book out right now. I'll summarise it to settle some things.
Kellenved had only one companion in the beginning; dancer. Firstly, they hired out a handful of locals -beginning with the young boy Dujek. Dujek then found a small group of ex-corsairs; Nok, Ameron, and Hawl which he delivered to kelenved and dancer. They were recruited. This small group then found and entered Deadhouse.
Dancer then bolstered their numbers by recruiting the two napan brothers (Urko and Cartheron Crust) and Surly. Toc Elder, Dassem and Tayschrenn followed shortly afterward. Duiker was the last to be recruited and was only a messenger boy of sorts. Their number then was known as Kellenved's family.
This group then set off to conquer the criminal element that ruled the island which was headed by a corsair named Mock. Hawl was thought to have died in this (and perhaps, indeed she did).
Duikers status as only a messenger of sorts may explain his old appearance. Being a messenger, his time in the Deadhouse would, of course, have been dramatically less than that of the others (as he was not part of the planning), thus reducing the benefits of the azath house.
I dont quite agree on the point that WJ only became important after raraku. I think he was important before or just after the actual family forged the empire..but just not one of the founding members (family). WJ was, in my opinion, nearly in the family...but not quite.
The pages where Nok explains all this to Tavore is on pg 296 on the small paperback version.
Kellenved had only one companion in the beginning; dancer. Firstly, they hired out a handful of locals -beginning with the young boy Dujek. Dujek then found a small group of ex-corsairs; Nok, Ameron, and Hawl which he delivered to kelenved and dancer. They were recruited. This small group then found and entered Deadhouse.
Dancer then bolstered their numbers by recruiting the two napan brothers (Urko and Cartheron Crust) and Surly. Toc Elder, Dassem and Tayschrenn followed shortly afterward. Duiker was the last to be recruited and was only a messenger boy of sorts. Their number then was known as Kellenved's family.
This group then set off to conquer the criminal element that ruled the island which was headed by a corsair named Mock. Hawl was thought to have died in this (and perhaps, indeed she did).
Duikers status as only a messenger of sorts may explain his old appearance. Being a messenger, his time in the Deadhouse would, of course, have been dramatically less than that of the others (as he was not part of the planning), thus reducing the benefits of the azath house.
I dont quite agree on the point that WJ only became important after raraku. I think he was important before or just after the actual family forged the empire..but just not one of the founding members (family). WJ was, in my opinion, nearly in the family...but not quite.
The pages where Nok explains all this to Tavore is on pg 296 on the small paperback version.
#51 Guest_The Silent One_*
Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:15 PM
Im not sure if this is the same hawl but doesnt cotillion find her dead on drift avalii after he helps defend the throne of shadow from the edur???
#53 Guest_recked_it_*
Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:46 AM
do we know that for fact though? or is it just sepculation?
#54
- Group: Unregistered / Not Logged In
Posted 05 October 2005 - 08:06 AM
Do we know what for a fact?
Is Hawl..er.. Hawl?
Read it for yourself p. 659 HoC mmpb
Is Hawl..er.. Hawl?
Read it for yourself p. 659 HoC mmpb
#55 Guest_recked_it_*
Posted 05 October 2005 - 01:27 PM
yea just did. Indeed, it was Hawl. I was thinking they never actually mentioned a name..but alas, they did.
#56 Guest_Serric_*
Posted 05 October 2005 - 03:20 PM
recked_it said:
This group then set off to conquer the criminal element that ruled the island which was headed by a corsair named Mock. Hawl was thought to have died in this (and perhaps, indeed she did).
Hi, first post ever, just got something to point out about Hawl...as the quote above says, she was thought to have died, but when Cottilion finds her on Drift Avalii, he says about how he didn't think 'think there were any left' and how he taught them to hide well (no direct quote, just the general idea of what he said). I believe he also directly mentioned the Talon, and the Talon commanders when refering to Hawl...so we can assume from this that she was at least part of the Talon, maybe even a commander (second in command?) and that she may have been the FIRST Talon...does anyone agree?
And if, as far as Cottilion was concerned, she had died, he would have said something along the line of 'I thought she was dead...". So, from that, I assume Dancer knew that she wasn't dead, and only lost contact after his and Kellenved's assassination...so why would he keep this from Nok? And why would Hawl go along with it? Covert mission perhaps? He might not have fully trusted Nok, as Hawl as his wife might give him details (inadventenly) of what Dancer's plans were. This fits in with Sorry's speech in Deadhouse Gates about Cottilion not trusting anyone, and Dancer trusting only Kellenved...and Dassem Ultor. This could fit in with why she's with Traveller (as in my mind, Traveller is Dassem Ultor, going on the info i've got from HOC). Traveler can't be Ameron, as Ameron is half-Napen, while Traveller is Dal Honese. (If I'm completely wrong on Traveller some correct me please, put me out of my misery...
)Anyone got anything to say on any of this?
#57
Omras Ghum
- Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 04-September 05
Posted 05 October 2005 - 03:36 PM
everything you wrote makes sense, can't see any way to criticize...
#58
- Group: Unregistered / Not Logged In
Posted 05 October 2005 - 03:59 PM
welcome Serric
Yup... it all looks pretty much as it should do
..... Although Brewdy might come along and take issue with you over Traveller... but he seems to be on a one-man crusade there so it's nothing to worry about.
Yup... it all looks pretty much as it should do
..... Although Brewdy might come along and take issue with you over Traveller... but he seems to be on a one-man crusade there so it's nothing to worry about.
#59
Imperial Historian
- Master of the Deck
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 7,883
- Joined: 08-February 04
Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:40 PM
You know, thinking on Hawl being a Talon, it just does not make sense that hawl would agree to "die" and let her husband think she was dead after a seemingly brief span of time for which she had known kelvanned and dancer... why on earth would she pretend she was dead?
So seeing as there does not seem any logical reason for her to pretend she was dead I got athinking... is there anything to indicate that the hawl on the island was also the hawl who was Nok's wife? could she not equally be just another important malzan named after hawl... I mean think about it the early founders of the malzan empire become heroes, and what do thousands of people name there children after? heroes...
So the hawl on the island could be named after the original hawl who was Nok's wife and then become an important talon, duiker the historian could be named after the duiker in deadhouse and so explain the apparent inconcistencies betwene the duiker who used alchemy to stay aliev and wa spicke dout of the ranks and the duiker who was among the first of kelvanned's followers, dujek onearm could be named after the boy dujek who ran messages and collected the family, explaining the difference between the age of dujek (70 odd) and the age of the empire (100 years plus).
It seems to make sense to me anyway, what do you think?
So seeing as there does not seem any logical reason for her to pretend she was dead I got athinking... is there anything to indicate that the hawl on the island was also the hawl who was Nok's wife? could she not equally be just another important malzan named after hawl... I mean think about it the early founders of the malzan empire become heroes, and what do thousands of people name there children after? heroes...
So the hawl on the island could be named after the original hawl who was Nok's wife and then become an important talon, duiker the historian could be named after the duiker in deadhouse and so explain the apparent inconcistencies betwene the duiker who used alchemy to stay aliev and wa spicke dout of the ranks and the duiker who was among the first of kelvanned's followers, dujek onearm could be named after the boy dujek who ran messages and collected the family, explaining the difference between the age of dujek (70 odd) and the age of the empire (100 years plus).
It seems to make sense to me anyway, what do you think?
#60
Omras Ghum
- Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 04-September 05
Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:46 PM
is there anywhere clearly stated that one of them is of a certain age? or are they referred to as looking like say 70 or whatever... the azath influence can have granted them longevity of sorts...
and by the way - what guarantee do we have that nok (from whom we draw most of our knowledge about the "family") does tell tavore the truth?? after all he must fear all he tells her lands straight in laseen's lap and if he tells things laseen would know anyways he might still feel tavore doesn't need to know...
and by the way - what guarantee do we have that nok (from whom we draw most of our knowledge about the "family") does tell tavore the truth?? after all he must fear all he tells her lands straight in laseen's lap and if he tells things laseen would know anyways he might still feel tavore doesn't need to know...
