[Aptorian]

Almost finished this book last weekend. I kept putting off finishing the epilogue. I didn't want the book to end. Finally wrapped the book up earlier today.

I liked the book immensely. Lament and Deadhouse Landing have rekindled my love for the Malazan universe. Once again I feel that thrill when meeting old and new characters, when I recognize names and hints, when I begin speculating on what cryptic side comments mean, etc. Esslemont is handling the background material for the old books superbly. He's revealing information we've only had hints of for over a decade and yet, somehow he manages to still keep the characters and the lore mysterious and fascinating.

I feel like Deadhouse Landing ramps up the series from the easy introductions of Dancer's Lament. We have many more characters and POV's, we are seeing more plot strands and with Deadhouse Landing, a threat is revealed in the background. This made for a much more interesting and ambitious story but also reveals some weaknesses in this new series format. I found myself frustrated with how quickly the book moved. It made it a thrilling read with pretty much no boring chapters but also means there was no room for the story to breath. There was no time to delve into the politics and motivations that had more space in the original book series. I found myself wanting to know more about Malaz Island... is there nothing more to this place than the City? And what about the cities actual leadership beyond Nok's admiral rule? What about the mages? Not to speak about wanting to know more about the politics and power angles between the small nations of the region.

And what about Kelanved and Dancer? If Dancer's Lament was Dorin/Dancer's book then this was definitely Kelanved's. And I enjoyed that but it felt like Dancer did nothing but trail behind Kelanved in this book, to the point we barely got to see him in action beyond the fight with Cowl. And the accelerated speed of the storytelling, most likely caused by the page count, meant that the changes to the two men felt rushed. They go Shadow Exploring in the middle of a guerilla underworld takeover, Kelanved breaks open Shadow, gets Ottataral Warren Fucked, survives a month in a quarry, reassembles, then immediately goes back to trekking around Shadow, comes to Malaz city, tames the hounds, invades the Deadhouse and just resumes their takeover of Malaz. It felt like the crazy shit Dancer and Kelanved were notorious for doing but not on this timescale. It felt like the book could easily had stretched over another couple hundred pages.

Still, I think what Esslemont is building here is clever. This is a new, simpler, leaner, easier introduction for people who can't get into the first books of the Main series run. Deadhouse Landing moves fast and it's fun. It has those badass scenes that I love and the character's have that larger than life quality that I appreciate.

I'll say one thing about Esslemont's handling of the Old Guard, he's completely changing a lot of my assumptions about the old days. Some misunderstandings/changes I wasn't aware of:

I never connected Surly/Surresh/Laseen with royalty. In retrospect, it makes sense politically, why else would Laseen had been able to take power and get support from the nobility? Hard to believe they'd follow a former bar maid... but I seriously thought that was her origin. I had an idea in my mind of the Old Family just being random mercenaries, soldiers and pirates who allied themselves with Kelanved and Dancer.

I'm also surprised by the roles of Dujek and "Jack". They emerge as formidable character but not the character's I expected from the stories told in the first books. Dujek was I believe referred to as "A kid" by the older members of the Old Guard. And Whiskey Jack I wouldn't expect to show up for another human generation or two. Which leads me to wonder what Esslemont is doing to the timeline. As far as I recall, at the time of Gardens of the Moon, The Malazan Empire is a hundred years old or more. And Dujek is around 70'ish years old. Which fitted with his status as a young kid who hung around the Old Family and worked his way up to High Fist.

Now with Deadhouse Landing, what the hell is happening to our timeline? We can hand-wave it all by saying that Dujek, Whiskeyjack, etc. just told stories to fit in with legends and political expediencies, but something is really off there. I mean, if Dujek and Whiskeyjack is there at the beginning... what the fuck is going on with the relationship to Laseen and Tayschren's callousness and detachment? Of course we can argue we're just navigating GOTM'isms but this is ugly.

And yet, I also like it. We had a picture of what the past was like and Deadhouse Landing is shaking things up.

Now can somebody explain to me who the hell Nara, the woman Dassem saves/bargains for is? I think I remember her in Dancer's Lament but who is she? In the original series, Fiddler and co. (I think?) come by a woman left in the deadhouse we learned was connected to Dassem. Maybe be learn that in Bonehunters? Now, I was of the impression that this woman was actually Dassem's daughter who was sacrificed/hurt/killed in the last Chaining of the Crippled God. But that's clearly not it. So who is she? The Dramatis Personae just calls her a follower. Is she a sister of Dassem? Given his origin story that sounds unlikely. A lover? Just a colleague? I am so confused by this.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 01 January 2018 - 02:21 PM

[Coltaine -]

Finished the book also during the christmas holidays. I liked it a lot, but ICE has definitly thrown my whole personal timeline for the Old Guard into a mess. Surly being nobility or royality was at least mentioned once by Nok I think. Propably in the same conversation with Tavore, when he told the story of the old Guard. Kellanved and Dancer buy Smiley's, Dujek as a young boy works for them. Finds and recruits Nok, Amaron and Hawl, they recruit the rest, Mok gets overthrown.

Now Nok isn't even there, the Napanese Islands weren't conquered by Unta, instead they had a civil war, Hawl is with Grinner, Toc(aras) is a Napanese, and Whiskeyjack is also with the gang from the beginning. I also assumed that he should be way younger. Especially if he has a sister in her twenties in tBH. Based on the story about the fight he once lost against his much younger sister and Dunsparrows age I guessed he would be roughly forty, if Dunsparrow is this sister.

Nara was the only other survivor of Ryllandaras attack on Dassem's caravan. He finds the girl after he has met Dorin and adopts her as an acolyte in his new temple in Li Heng. She doesn't play any big role in Lament and I also don't think that her name was mentioned there.

As she is placed into the Deadhouse and there is the whole deal with Hood thing I also think that she has to be the daughter of Dassem mentioned in the earlier books. The woman Fiddler and friends find in Deadhouse Gates was a bit older I think, but probably there is still some time left until the chaining.

[Aptorian]

Maybe Jack is Whiskeyjack's father...?!? Everything suggests that Jack is Whiskeyjack but it terms of the timeline it's really fucked.

Somehow I never connected Tocaras with Toc the Elder. Ha, this reminds me of how I twice completely overlooked Tayschren.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 01 January 2018 - 02:24 PM

[rant]

Alternative Goose, on 31 December 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

And what about Kelanved and Dancer? If Dancer's Lament was Dorin/Dancer's book then this was definitely Kelanved's. And I enjoyed that but it felt like Dancer did nothing but trail behind Kelanved in this book, to the point we barely got to see him in action beyond the fight with Cowl. And the accelerated speed of the storytelling, most likely caused by the page count, meant that the changes to the two men felt rushed. They go Shadow Exploring in the middle of a guerilla underworld takeover, Kelanved breaks open Shadow, gets Ottataral Warren Fucked, survives a month in a quarry, reassembles, then immediately goes back to trekking around Shadow, comes to Malaz city, tames the hounds, invades the Deadhouse and just resumes their takeover of Malaz. It felt like the crazy shit Dancer and Kelanved were notorious for doing but not on this timescale. It felt like the book could easily had stretched over another couple hundred pages.

This I interpreted as foreshadowing (is it foreshadowing if we know what it leads to?) to Surly's eventual taking of the throne. Kel and Dancer are the nominal heads of the empire, but they often take off and leave Surly in charge. Eventually, as the time between when they pop back up grows larger, she gets tired of waiting, and decides she can lead it without their hands off guidance.

In regard to the weird timeline issues, I agree. One thought I had while reading your post (and I admit it is a longshot), what if some of the names of the old guard become titles in essence (I mean, we see Toc name his only son Toc.....). They have these individuals leading the empire become really long-lived. For PR, when old guard die, they don't actually die.....someone assumes their name and responsibilities.

So maybe this Dujek dies eventually, and they give a kid his title etc.

WRT WhiskeyJack, I don't think it's him. Someone elsethread pointed out that this Jack was nobleborn and trained as a military officer...whereas the WhiskeyJack we know was originally a mason right?

I dunno...I've always found the Malaz Empire timeline to be sketchy, and you're right this is making it a bit sketchier.

[Gorefest]

- Coltaine -, on 01 January 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Now Nok isn't even there,

He (well, a 'Noc') is mentioned in passing to still be on Nap to try and rally underground support for Surly.

Quote

the Napanese Islands weren't conquered by Unta, instead they had a civil war,

Could still happen in the fallout from the civil war.

Quote

Toc(aras) is a Napanese,

Might not be the same character, lots of speculation on this in other DL threads.

Quote

and Whiskeyjack is also with the gang from the beginning. I also assumed that he should be way younger. Especially if he has a sister in her twenties in tBH. Based on the story about the fight he once lost against his much younger sister and Dunsparrows age I guessed he would be roughly forty, if Dunsparrow is this sister.

Again, this is open to debate although I personally also think that Jack is Whiskeyjack (or otherwise the burning bridge reference etc would be very contrived by ICE). Some people speculate that Jack might be Toc the Elder, if I recall correctly. Perhaps he took on Tocaras' name as an alias or even a badge of honour at some point.

Quote

Nara was the only other survivor of Ryllandaras attack on Dassem's caravan. He finds the girl after he has met Dorin and adopts her as an acolyte in his new temple in Li Heng. She doesn't play any big role in Lament and I also don't think that her name was mentioned there. As she is placed into the Deadhouse and there is the whole deal with Hood thing I also think that she has to be the daughter of Dassem mentioned in the earlier books. The woman Fiddler and friends find in Deadhouse Gates was a bit older I think, but probably there is still some time left until the chaining.

Also subject to debate. I too thought that this was the woman that Fiddler and co came across in DG, but it seems very early in the Dassem timeline. So I guess it is also possible that Dassem will get a daughter later on who is violated during the last chaining and subsequently put in the Deadhouse because Dassem realises from the DL events that it will preserve her (or Hood does it himself because it seems to be his standard way of preserving things). So Nara could just be foreshadowing.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 02 January 2018 - 02:15 PM

[Nevyn]

Alternative Goose, on 31 December 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

I never connected Surly/Surresh/Laseen with royalty. In retrospect, it makes sense politically, why else would Laseen had been able to take power and get support from the nobility? Hard to believe they'd follow a former bar maid... but I seriously thought that was her origin. I had an idea in my mind of the Old Family just being random mercenaries, soldiers and pirates who allied themselves with Kelanved and Dancer.

There were some mentions in prior books of her being connected to the Napan royal line, although I don't recall it being obvious that she was a contender for the throne.

Quote

I'm also surprised by the roles of Dujek and "Jack". They emerge as formidable character but not the character's I expected from the stories told in the first books. Dujek was I believe referred to as "A kid" by the older members of the Old Guard. And Whiskey Jack I wouldn't expect to show up for another human generation or two. Which leads me to wonder what Esslemont is doing to the timeline. As far as I recall, at the time of Gardens of the Moon, The Malazan Empire is a hundred years old or more. And Dujek is around 70'ish years old. Which fitted with his status as a young kid who hung around the Old Family and worked his way up to High Fist.

Now with Deadhouse Landing, what the hell is happening to our timeline? We can hand-wave it all by saying that Dujek, Whiskeyjack, etc. just told stories to fit in with legends and political expediencies, but something is really off there. I mean, if Dujek and Whiskeyjack is there at the beginning... what the fuck is going on with the relationship to Laseen and Tayschren's callousness and detachment? Of course we can argue we're just navigating GOTM'isms but this is ugly.

-30 is quite a young kid.

The series has some mentions of the deadhouse keeping a lot of the old guard artificially young.

And there has never been anything in the series to overtly tell you that Malazan humans have earth length life spans.

The timeline is not important.

Quote

Now can somebody explain to me who the hell Nara, the woman Dassem saves/bargains for is? I think I remember her in Dancer's Lament but who is she? In the original series, Fiddler and co. (I think?) come by a woman left in the deadhouse we learned was connected to Dassem. Maybe be learn that in Bonehunters? Now, I was of the impression that this woman was actually Dassem's daughter who was sacrificed/hurt/killed in the last Chaining of the Crippled God. But that's clearly not it. So who is she? The Dramatis Personae just calls her a follower. Is she a sister of Dassem? Given his origin story that sounds unlikely. A lover? Just a colleague? I am so confused by this.

We are meant to be confused by it. She is hardly mentioned in Lament, but when she is, she is under his protection but never called his daughter.

So she could be, or her trip to the deadhouse could explain how Dassem would later to save a daughter with the same trick.

[Nevyn]

Some quote fu.

This is Traveller (dassem) in Toll the Hounds:

Quote

'Few recall,' Traveller was saying, 'the chaos of the Malazan Empire in those early days. The madness only began with Kellanved, the Emperor. His first cadre of lieutenants were all Napan, each one secretly sworn to a young woman named Surly, who was heiress to the crown of the Nap Isles - in hiding ever since the Untan conquest.'

So her being a princess is not new, although here they have her in exile due to Untan conquest, not a power struggle with a family member.

[Coltaine -]

Kids or comrades taking on names could be an explanation, at least in the case of Tocaras. Noc/k and Amaron being on Nap hopefully means that we will see them in the next book. I would like to know if he was really married to Hawl

Gorefest, on 02 January 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

- Coltaine -, on 01 January 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Nara was the only other survivor of Ryllandaras attack on Dassem's caravan. He finds the girl after he has met Dorin and adopts her as an acolyte in his new temple in Li Heng. She doesn't play any big role in Lament and I also don't think that her name was mentioned there. As she is placed into the Deadhouse and there is the whole deal with Hood thing I also think that she has to be the daughter of Dassem mentioned in the earlier books. The woman Fiddler and friends find in Deadhouse Gates was a bit older I think, but probably there is still some time left until the chaining.

Also subject to debate. I too thought that this was the woman that Fiddler and co came across in DG, but it seems very early in the Dassem timeline. So I guess it is also possible that Dassem will get a daughter later on who is violated during the last chaining and subsequently put in the Deadhouse because Dassem realises from the DL events that it will preserve her (or Hood does it himself because it seems to be his standard way of preserving things). So Nara could just be foreshadowing.

Nara being just used as foreshadowing could also be possible. But Nara getting taken out of the Deadhouse some time, later getting used in the chaining by Hood and Dassem retrieving her body to bring it back to the Deadhouse before starting his revenge campaign seems to me more likely than introducing another character into this storyline.

[Abyss]

- Coltaine -, on 02 January 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

...
Nara being just used as foreshadowing could also be possible. But Nara getting taken out of the Deadhouse some time, later getting used in the chaining by Hood and Dassem retrieving her body to bring it back to the Deadhouse before starting his revenge campaign seems to me more likely than introducing another character into this storyline.

I can't find the quote just now, but i vaguely recall the woman Fid n co find in DG is older than 'a girl', in armor, and all kinds of cut up... none of which lines up with Nara when Das drops her off (also, not at the threshold of the door), so, if my hazy recall is accurate, either Nara gets better and out and put back, or they found someone else entirely.

[Coltaine -]

Abyss, on 02 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

- Coltaine -, on 02 January 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

...
Nara being just used as foreshadowing could also be possible. But Nara getting taken out of the Deadhouse some time, later getting used in the chaining by Hood and Dassem retrieving her body to bring it back to the Deadhouse before starting his revenge campaign seems to me more likely than introducing another character into this storyline.

I can't find the quote just now, but i vaguely recall the woman Fid n co find in DG is older than 'a girl', in armor, and all kinds of cut up... none of which lines up with Nara when Das drops her off (also, not at the threshold of the door), so, if my hazy recall is accurate, either Nara gets better and out and put back, or they found someone else entirely.

Your recall is accurate. I would currently go with option one, but there is also option three that ICE just changed some things or plans on changing them

[worry]

Yah I'm hoping that it 'works' this time in that she recovers, and so when Dassem does it again later with his daughter -- whether that's Nara or not -- and it doesn't 'work', it compounds the tragedy.

[nacht]

Quote

WRT WhiskeyJack, I don't think it's him. Someone elsethread pointed out that this Jack was nobleborn and trained as a military officer...whereas the WhiskeyJack we know was originally a mason right?

I dunno...I've always found the Malaz Empire timeline to be sketchy, and you're right this is making it a bit sketchier.

Jack is not noble born. He killed some noble born in a duel and had to leave the academy.

This post has been edited by nacht: 03 January 2018 - 07:23 AM

[rant]

nacht, on 03 January 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

Quote

WRT WhiskeyJack, I don't think it's him. Someone elsethread pointed out that this Jack was nobleborn and trained as a military officer...whereas the WhiskeyJack we know was originally a mason right?

I dunno...I've always found the Malaz Empire timeline to be sketchy, and you're right this is making it a bit sketchier.

Jack is not noble born. He killed some noble born in a duel and had to leave the academy.

Clearly I was reading too fast lol

[Taimandred]

So I haven't finished this book, but I'm close to it. I love the Malazan book of the Fallen and ICE has become way better over the years. The books about Dancer and Kellanved have been very nice so far and in my opinion his best work. However, the timeline gets fucked up even worse. I haven't heard Tattersails name being mentioned here. As far as I remember she says in Gardens of the moon she is like 270 (?) years old. I have thought before, that the old guard had sort of ascended before and was sort of immortal but it doesn't make sense. Sometimes I think Esslemont and Erikson just made up a series and said, we can write whatever we want and there wll be fans that discuss it and try to fit it all together. Let's play with them Thta's not even meant in a bad way, because I love to think about the series and not many books make you think about them so hard. Still, the whole old guard concept and Kellanveds and Dancers Ascension feels a bit out of place and out of time. Either they all are ascendants or they would all have to be mages to live that long. Still love to read more about them and funny enough one of my secret heroes Kallor

This post has been edited by Taimandred: 20 February 2018 - 12:41 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Taimandred... that's a name I haven't heard for a long time. Before the dark times, before the Malazan Empire.

[Gorefest]

Taimandred, on 20 February 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

So I haven't finished this book, but I'm close to it. I love the Malazan book of the Fallen and ICE has become way better over the years. The books about Dancer and Kellanved have been very nice so far and in my opinion his best work. However, the timeline gets fucked up even worse. I haven't heard Tattersails name being mentioned here. As far as I remember she says in Gardens of the moon she is like 270 (?) years old. I have thought before, that the old guard had sort of ascended before and was sort of immortal but it doesn't make sense. Sometimes I think Esslemont and Erikson just made up a series and said, we can write whatever we want and there wll be fans that discuss it and try to fit it all together. Let's play with them Thta's not even meant in a bad way, because I love to think about the series and not many books make you think about them so hard. Still, the whole old guard concept and Kellanveds and Dancers Ascension feels a bit out of place and out of time. Either they all are ascendants or they would all have to be mages to live that long. Still love to read more about them and funny enough one of my secret heroes Kallor

Well, I believe it is mentioned/hinted at several times throughout the series that their longevity stems from their time spent in the Deadhouse. So they won't necessarily all have ascended, although obviously you cannot hang around several convergences for this long without at least picking up some sunburn. Don't think this specific observation necessarily breaks the timeline, although there are other examples where the timeline is clearly dodgy.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 20 February 2018 - 12:45 PM

[misteradam]

I just finished it. Loved it. I'm not worried about the timeline, as Whiskeyjack and them go through an ascension of sorts in the desert that prolongs all their lives.

The only two parts that bugged me were Dassem throwing his sheath into the water from the bridge, then magically having it again. And I don't recall Dancer ever trying to get his baldric and knives back during their escape from the mines.

[Tatterdemalion]

Just finished it. Amazing. Loved it.

And now for my ceremonial scouring of the Malazan Empire forum to learn all the things I completely missed. Man, I've been doing this for near a decade.