[worry]

Just use the spoiler tag, and announce which non-main book you're talking about above the spoiler window, and it should be all good.

[rant]

My first spoiler tag......stressful lol....the stakes couldn't be higher

FoD/ mainly FoL spoilers:

Spoiler

So, continuing with the theme about rape re: Janal.......I'm having a lot of trouble with Narad/Enesdia's storyline.

On one hand, I respect the fact that SE is brave/confident/competent enough to attempt a story arc like Narad's that humanizes and captures the guilt some rapists must feel.....culminating in what I'm assuming (though SE often throws curveballs.......TRULL) is some form of redemption for Narad.

On the other hand......Narad is (at least in my eyes; other interpretations are invited!) essentially getting super powers (/maybe a crown in the future?) explicitly because of his raping someone....and that just makes me uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong....I recognize not all art/ literature is meant to comfort us.....I just don't see, well the point I guess, of pushing this comfort zone.

In my mind the causal pathway from Narad to power runs:

Draconus' gift to MD/Krul bleeds / Triss' balancing act -->
Enesdias rape--> MD's blessing of Enesdia's grave (? I can't remember)--> Narad's guilt/ connection to a now deceased Priestess of galain/ all the sorcery spilling around the realm-->The Watch



I read Narad's section as though Narad is aware of the absurdity of the process of his guilt supercharging him and giving him authority, and think SE executes it well....but I dunno, it still sticks in my craw a bit.

This post has been edited by rant: 11 November 2017 - 01:40 PM

[Adhara]

I swear I won't put my hands in the spoiler above! I´m back to speak about Janath rape/torture scenes (I had no time enough before). They really disgusted me, as it was the authorial purpose. It was the same feeling  with ASOIAF  

Spoiler

Theon torture scenes.

<br>But I think these scenes have a reason. In a recent interview you have posted in the forum, Erikson has stated clearly that if you only write characters who react as yourself, you haven't been challenged at all. I suppose a person who makes compassion a main theme in his books can't stand torture, and this is the real reason to take this challenge: to slip in the mind of a sadistic rapist as the way of putting oneself in the shoes of the most alien mind to you. I imagine the writing process has been as painful for him as a writer as it is for us as readers, and I admire him for taking the trouble and giving us the opportunity to share it with him... even if I would have preferred to skip the entire scene.

This post has been edited by Morgan Lefay: 22 November 2017 - 10:37 AM

[Zetubal]

Well, that may be a reason, but it's a bit shallow if you ask me. I don't think that stepping out of one's comfort zone is a great thing in and of itself; what can make that effort commendable is if it's in the context of overcoming adversity to create something better.
With the Janal scenes, SE may pat himself on the shoulder and tell himself that he did well putting himself in someone else's shoes whom he personally detests...but that's as far as it goes. It just seems rather self-serving, as in SE proved something to himself, regardless of how unnecessary/detrimental it was to the quality of the larger narrative.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 22 November 2017 - 02:07 PM

[Adhara]

As with every discussion in which I take part, I find myself agreeing a bit with the other side, even though I still keep my position. May be you are right if this scenes are, in fact, just to overcome a challenge and not for plot reasons. The key is how can we know if it is true. This is a matter of opinion and no one can tell with certainty. Literature is not exact science and there is not an apparatus which can test a scene and prove its value as a false coin can be tested. I suppose we have to trust our intuition, but, of course, this is NOT an answer as every person has a different taste. You feel this scenes don't fit; I didn't have this feeling. We can say no more.

[rant]

I came across the TOR re-read post regarding Hetans hobbling in DoD:
https://www.tor.com/...antasy-fiction/

I think it speaks to some of the questions were raising here. SE (and anecdotally his wife) makes a good point that scenes like these are probably the only instances where-in someone like me will 'experience' the realities of rape and torture. As he implies in his comment.. I (being a male, white, Canadian living in Canada) have the opportunity to turn my head from the real world realities of rape and torture. And even if I don't turn away from them, the horror of it may not allow me to truly understand it. Placing the rape and torture into his fantasy may have created enough of a......psychological barrier between the events and reality for me to grasp it....whereas in real life I'll be so busy trying to emphasize and support a victim that I'd not be able (or truthfully want to) understand.

I'd never thought about it like this before.....but in my instance, it forces me to shed the privilege to look away that was granted by my winning the genetic lottery.

FoD/FoL spoilers:

Spoiler

This insight actually makes my issues with the Enesdias rape even stronger. Whereas Janath and Hetan I believe both represent POV experiences of their rape and torture, Enesdia does not. In fact we barely get to see inside Enesdia's head at all.

I need to reread the section, but now I'm leaning towards this being an attempt to capture the delusion of rapists in the act, as well as describing how their act of rape can drive future guilt? I don't know I'm still struggling with the whole arc.

On the more lighthearted side of things...I just realized my last post included "the stakes have never been higher"...that's a joke my coworkers and I have started making regarding the pointless meetings etc....so I'm a bit surprised I've used it here lol.
Though to be honest we've moved on from stakes never being higher, and are now holding steaks in the air and declaring they've never been higher.