[Zetubal]

Heyfolks, I guess it goes without saying but all of us who've bothered to create an account here like the MBotF. Unless you're a really angry hater who just registered here to vent their anger, in which case I'd say...whatever, you don't count. Anyway, while reading up on past threads here I noticed a tendency. Folks seem to be really fond oft alking about the greatest things across all the books. Best characters, strongest fighters - stuff like that. How about we turn this upside down and - for once, make a list of the worst (or least favorite) things for each of the MBotF novels? Sure, we may love them, but that doesn't put them above criticism. So...hand down, which parts of each novel didn't you enjoy? What bugged you? Were their elements, characters or even entire plotlines that you couldn't stand? And why is that? Tell us. I'll start us off: 1.GotM Oponn I've always felt that making "(mis-)chance" a character/god is kind of a cheap trick that has been done in too many works of fiction. Plus there's the fact that Oponn are total wusses. Unlike many other characters that appear in GotM, there's really no substance to them -they're just tools to advance part of the plot. 2.DG Felisin Don'tlike her. 3.MoI The Mhyhe Plotline Don't get me wrong - I think that it's a beautifully crafted plot, I appreciate the humanity and compassion that she's shown by Kruppe, Murillio etc. But in a novel that is so eventful, action-packed and epic, it's really jarring to have these sections where someone suffers from their decrepit body and keeps having the same red riding hood-ish nightmare. 4.HoC The intrigues at Sha'ik's camp Knowing Erikson, it felt kind of obvious that all this scheming between small-minded people in the camp would be for naught in the end. Not much of a payoff there. Also, an abundance of awful characters in the camp. 5.MT Rat Catcher's Guild That's really a nitpick, though. The more I think about it, MT is pretty devoid of things I disliked. As for the Rat Catcher's, I just wish they'd done something awesome after all the great build-up. Apart from innuendo-talks and bickering. 6.TBH Korbolo Dom not getting pummeled That's always a minus in my book. 7.RG The gratuitous rape/torture scenes I like to praise SE for his subtlety and how he carefully crafts complex scenarios...but the scenes with/about Janal felt like Malazanploitation. 8.TtH Nothing Can't think of anything I disliked about TtH. 9.DoD Nah'Ruk ex Machina Epic battle, sure. Just felt like there was a story worth telling about how a host of degenerate technolizards in their flying fortresses came to be allied with a bunch Forkrul Assail hellbent on purging the world. 10.TCG DouchyLiosan Similar to my complaint about the Nah'Ruk. They feel uncharacteristically undeveloped and one-dimensional. I think the battle at Lightfall would've had a lot more gravitas if I'd been able to empathize with both parties. Kind of a nitpick, again, though – the Lightfall battle was exhilarating anyway.


E: Copy/pasted this from a word document...kind of screwed the formatting and now I'm too...err..occupied...to fix it.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 30 October 2017 - 09:24 PM

[worry]

The books aren't long enough.

[Zetubal]

My bookshelf disagrees

[worry]

Well, they aren't wide enough then.

[Andorion]

I have always felt that Felisin's character arc can be understood best if DG and HoC are viewed together. Her story is breathtaking in its tragedy.

Regarding the Janal scenes in RG, and the Liosan and Assail in TCG, there is a common thread linking all of them.

While SE does usually like to write in shades of grey, sometimes he decides that he really hates a person or a group and then sets out to make them the most despicable possible villains. The Liosan and the Patriotists both qualify. Interestingly, the common theme that links them is moral certainty, a deep belief in their own superiority.

Now, to show the depravity in villains of this type, SE will go to any and all lengths. Thus the rape and torture of Janal, the smug self-satisfaction of the genocidal Liosan, the psychotic poise of the Assail. All of these are targetted towards evoking very strong emotions in the reader, emotions which are absolutely satisfied by cathartic climaxes - the destruction of the Patriotists, the annihilation of the Liosan and the total defeat of the Assail.

Regarding the Nahruk, I disagree. The nahruk story was deliberately engineered and built in the shadows. In HoC we had occasional glimpses of short tails, in TBH we had the image of a chain of flying fortresses in the Imperial Warren, and then in DoD they appear. But even then, they are not the typical SE villains. The impression which is conveyed again and again is that the Bonehunters were never their target, that battle was an accident of circumstance. The Nahruk appearance is an allusion to the extraordinarily long historical dynamics at play in the story, dynamics which are often only tangentially connected to the principal plot.

Lastly, if I were to pick out something which I dislike, I would cite two instances:

The Hobbling of Hetan in DoD: I mention this not because of the brutality, SE has already explained about that, I hate it because of the character assassination of Hetan. The brave, powerful and active Hetan of MoI would have never let things come to this pass. She would have had plans for her children and she would have been prepared for her assailants. That entire episode thus came off as inconsistent and anomalous.

The tragedy of Sandalath: (This is actually much worse if you take FoD and FoL into account.) This woman who was killed and then resurrected clearly had a very traumatic past in Kharkanas. This past returns to her in TCG along with a host of memories that cause her to essentially lose control of her mind. In the end she flees the throne room for her ancient chamber, only crying for her children. But of her children, Korlat hates her and vows never to return, joining the Shake as the Sister of Cold Nights. And her beloved other child, the child she cries for repeatedly - Orfantal is dead. She never gets happiness or consolation. TCG ends with her offstage, whimpering in fear and trauma in a dusty forgotten room. She did not deserve this fate.

[Zetubal]

What you describe as a common thread is not so much a defense of SE's writing as it is an explanation, right? And, yeah, I see that to some extent. However, the main misconception here lies with the fact that I'm not bugged by the one-dimensional characterization of the patriotist who tortures Janal. What rubs me the wrong way is the gratuitous use of sexualized violence and the voyeuristic almost perversely erotic account of her abuse. To put that in perspective: There are many occasions on which characters in the novels are tortured and/or raped (Toc and Stonny in MoI, Seren in MT etc.). But in neither of those cases does SE stoop so low as to write their misery in the style of a sexploitation story.
As for making the Patriotists despicable...well, there's plenty to dislike already and SE usually doesn't need to get that graphic and cheap to accomplish that. I mean, I certainly wasn't all too fond of the Seerdomin who raped Stonny after she stumbled into Gruntle. Didn't exactly feel like I needed half a page's worth of "Seerdomin XYZ mounts Stonny, punches her into submission and rams his pulsating wiener into her bleeding..." to increase my aversion to him.
In almost all other cases SE seems to have a fine balance balance showing stuff and leaving stuff to the reader's imagination. With Janal's scenes...there's none of that subtlety.

Well, the Nah'Ruk-FA-alliance leaves some questions though, doesn't it? I mean, it's kind that you recap the events that led to their appearance in DoD and that you try to defend them by elaborating on the underlying narrative theme that they allude to, but that's again not the point. I don't think the Nah'Ruk storyline failed to fulfill its intended function. I just wish there'd been some background information because I always enjoyed learning about one of the few races that were never intimately shown. And I certainly would've liked to be privy to the moments in which their alliance with the FA was established. There's just so much left vague that I would've enjoyed to read about.
Granted, that may not be an ideal example of the "Worst thing in DoD" as the thread title would suggest, but it's easily the thing that I would most wish were included in DoD.

As for Sandalath, I actually found that to be interesting in its own right. Earlier you write about the breathtaking tragedy of Felisin's tale, and that pretty much sums up how I view Sandalath. I respect that SE sometimes has the backbone to ultimately let his characters falter and collapse under the amassed pressure of their misfortunes. Sandalath's story sticks with me for that very reason.
I would actually go furher and argue that I would have liked to see Hetan stay dead for that same reason. That would've made Tool's reunion with his kids somewhat bittersweet. Imagine his joy when he sees that - against his belief - they are alive and for the briefest moment he thinks to himself "Maybe my wife also made it" just to realize that while he was incredibly lucky to have his children miraculously saved, he now has to raise them without his beloved one. Well, just my 2 cents.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 02 November 2017 - 10:51 AM

[Gorefest]

I must say that my opinion of various aspects of the series that irked me on my first read changed a lot on a reread.

1. GotM: I found the third-person depictions of the Bridgeburners in Daruhjistan a bit jarring and not in line with how I would expect them to act.
I didn't mind Oponn. SE likes to play around with established tropes so gods of (mis)chance being overly present in fantasy is really the whole point. Lots of times when such entities are introduced they are used as a deus ex machina, a get-out-of-jail-free card to reason away some dodgy plot twists. Which in my opinion is what SE was trying to ridicule with Oponn, by making them weak and really not able to effect very much at all, no matter how hard they tried.

2. DG: Felisin really grew on me upon rereading. I think she is one of the better developed characters with a clear arc throughout the early books. My personal pet peeve is with the 'travel arrangements' and the poorly rationalised splitting up of the group. Kalam aiding the whirlwind campaign to further his personal vendetta didn't really feel logical either. I can see where SE was going and what it was meant to accomplish, but I just think it wasn't explained very well. I also struggled to follow some of the battle scenes from the chain of dogs, especially the shield slope bit.

3. MoI: the Mhybe plot line is again one of those stories that is so much more rewarding upon a reread. I found it a bit of a slog on the first run-through as well, but thoroughly enjoyed it the second time around. I could find very little amiss with this book.


4. HoC: can't think of anything off the top of my head that I found specifically jarring, apart maybe from the book lacking the sense of epicness that the previous two installments delivered.


5. MT: glorious book, can't fault it. Even better upon a reread. Perhaps the comedy sections were a bit hit and miss for me personally, but I had that sensation more in RG.


6. tBH: there was a lot of introspection by various characters in this book, which at times got a bit much for me.


7. RG: I agree that for me too the almost voyeuristic exploitation stuff was a bit much. I understand what SE was trying to do but I'm not sure if it succeeded in its execution.


8. TtH: possibly my favourite book in the series.


9. The Nah-ruks are definitely not a deus ex machina. We have been hinted to their presence since very early on the series, but this is one of those crafty things that you cannot really fully appreciate until you do a reread, I think. There is tons of foreshadowing in previous novels.


10. tCG: perhaps one 'final stand-off' too many towards the end, but other than that I thought it was a worthy finale.

[Adhara]

I only am here to support poor mhybe. Her POVs are one of the best take on maternity since Alien (yes, that Alien).

Can´t say more because I skipped the part when you speak about books I haven't read.

[Zetubal]

Morgan Lefay, on 02 November 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

I only am here to support poor mhybe. Her POVs are one of the best take on maternity since Alien (yes, that Alien).

Which Alien are you referring to...? "That Alien" as in Alien 1 where there's only the computer AI mother...? Or Alien Resurrection that piece of f...film wherein Ripley feels vaguely attached to the grotesque monstrosity which she kills with vacuum suction? Either way, I'm confused. And I don't exactly see the connection to Mhyhe.

[Adhara]

Really I'm referring to the whole saga. The concept of an alien thing growing into your belly and ripping you (plus, it feeds in your life) is a very dark metaphor for maternity.And, of course,the Alien Queen is another take on negative aspectos of maternity (Ripley's relationship with Newt is the positive aspect).
The mhybe is the tale of the sacrifices that being a mother entails, showing them as such a terrible thing that drains the mother of ver very life.

This post has been edited by Morgan Lefay: 04 November 2017 - 11:34 AM

[Andorion]

Zetubal, on 02 November 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

What you describe as a common thread is not so much a defense of SE's writing as it is an explanation, right? And, yeah, I see that to some extent. However, the main misconception here lies with the fact that I'm not bugged by the one-dimensional characterization of the patriotist who tortures Janal. What rubs me the wrong way is the gratuitous use of sexualized violence and the voyeuristic almost perversely erotic account of her abuse. To put that in perspective: There are many occasions on which characters in the novels are tortured and/or raped (Toc and Stonny in MoI, Seren in MT etc.). But in neither of those cases does SE stoop so low as to write their misery in the style of a sexploitation story.
As for making the Patriotists despicable...well, there's plenty to dislike already and SE usually doesn't need to get that graphic and cheap to accomplish that. I mean, I certainly wasn't all too fond of the Seerdomin who raped Stonny after she stumbled into Gruntle. Didn't exactly feel like I needed half a page's worth of "Seerdomin XYZ mounts Stonny, punches her into submission and rams his pulsating wiener into her bleeding..." to increase my aversion to him.
In almost all other cases SE seems to have a fine balance balance showing stuff and leaving stuff to the reader's imagination. With Janal's scenes...there's none of that subtlety.

Well, the Nah'Ruk-FA-alliance leaves some questions though, doesn't it? I mean, it's kind that you recap the events that led to their appearance in DoD and that you try to defend them by elaborating on the underlying narrative theme that they allude to, but that's again not the point. I don't think the Nah'Ruk storyline failed to fulfill its intended function. I just wish there'd been some background information because I always enjoyed learning about one of the few races that were never intimately shown. And I certainly would've liked to be privy to the moments in which their alliance with the FA was established. There's just so much left vague that I would've enjoyed to read about.
Granted, that may not be an ideal example of the "Worst thing in DoD" as the thread title would suggest, but it's easily the thing that I would most wish were included in DoD.

As for Sandalath, I actually found that to be interesting in its own right. Earlier you write about the breathtaking tragedy of Felisin's tale, and that pretty much sums up how I view Sandalath. I respect that SE sometimes has the backbone to ultimately let his characters falter and collapse under the amassed pressure of their misfortunes. Sandalath's story sticks with me for that very reason.
I would actually go furher and argue that I would have liked to see Hetan stay dead for that same reason. That would've made Tool's reunion with his kids somewhat bittersweet. Imagine his joy when he sees that - against his belief - they are alive and for the briefest moment he thinks to himself "Maybe my wife also made it" just to realize that while he was incredibly lucky to have his children miraculously saved, he now has to raise them without his beloved one. Well, just my 2 cents.

Regarding the Janal scene, I think it is the only point in the entire series where SE uses the perspective of the rapist. He also contrasts this rapidly with Janal's own PoV in an attempt to show the extent of the delusion. I think one of SE's aims with the patriotist storyline towards the end was showing how they got detached from reality. Thus the boss is lost in Tehol's puzzle, while Janal's torturer deludes himself in the dark.

Sandalath.... I see your point, and the Felisin parallel is a good one, I think it sticks out more because in TCG nearly everyone gets some sort of ending, and she doesn't.

Nah'Ruk - to be fair, I think the K'chain as a collective were very marginal to the entire series, the Che'malle only really coming into their own in the last two books. While I would have liked some more Nah'Ruk I don't see how he could have given it to us without a Nah'Ruk PoV.

Regarding Hetan and Tool, while you certainly have a point, I think SE was trying something different with Tool. He breaks Tool down totally - he loses Toc, his tribe, his family and then finally himself. He reaches his lowest point when Toc turns him away from deaths gate and he embarks on his quest for vengeance. And then he slowly gains it all back again.

[Kellanved's shadow]

GotM: The inconsistent characterisation of key characters. Yes I know the reasons why but it still annoys me when I read it

DG: I am also baffled at Kalam helping the Drijna rebellion just for safe passage through 7 cities. I know he is a cold basted but no that cold.


MoI: The fact that Brood has not killed Kallor. The man has pissed of everyone in his 100,000 years + life. Why on earth would Brood just let him hang around. The fucking guy his cursed to fail. Why would you want someone who will always fail on your side.


HoC: the beginning POV with Karsa. It was jarring with the rest of the structure of MBotF. Also I hate Karsa with a passion.


MT: The only fault I can find is that we needed more scenes with Ion Bars.


BH: I still cant decide whether I love or hate the continual misadventures of Dejim Nebrral.


RG: Yes I didn't like the rape scenes either. Also the constant build up for the Karsa Rhuald fight only for it to be side event during the finale.


TtH: The whole Stonny and her kid side story. It just felt out of place compared to everything else happening in the story.


DoD: The fact that it took a good thired of the book for the 14th army to leave Lethares.


CG: Not enough Paran.


Also after MoI Tiste Andii eye colour don't change. And Why does this not happen with any of the other Tiste races. Why the Andii specificallys.

[Kellanved's shadow]

Also we never see Silchas go back to Karakanes. I mean does Silchas recognise Nimander as leader. Will he even speak to Mother Dark now that she is back. From what we have seen in FoD and FoL those two are not on the best of terms and Mother Dark hasn't forsaken their souls yet.

This post has been edited by Kellanved's shadow: 05 November 2017 - 09:05 AM

[Zetubal]

Andorion, on 04 November 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Regarding the Janal scene, I think it is the only point in the entire series where SE uses the perspective of the rapist. He also contrasts this rapidly with Janal's own PoV in an attempt to show the extent of the delusion. I think one of SE's aims with the patriotist storyline towards the end was showing how they got detached from reality. Thus the boss is lost in Tehol's puzzle, while Janal's torturer deludes himself in the dark.

I think there's a thin line between exploring and indulging in a description of intimacy. The torturer's delusion are pretty clear, even when SE only describes "circumstantial evidence" of his deeds like the bruises on Janal. As I stated earlier, that's plenty to work with. The agonizing, eroticized descriptions of Janal's rapes don't accomplish anything for me. I don't develop a stronger hatred for the rapist - I already know/knew what he was capable of. I don't learn anything new either, and when I think back to the fact that his very first POV already mentions that he is a sadist and had Janal abused so badly that she was barely conscious when he raped her, I really don't see how he can sink lower (even in terms of his delusions)

Quote

Sandalath.... I see your point, and the Felisin parallel is a good one, I think it sticks out more because in TCG nearly everyone gets some sort of ending, and she doesn't.

Well, frankly, Sand's story is resolved and she gets her ending. It's kind of similar to what you desribe further down with Tool - In the end, she returns to her former prison - the only difference being that the chains that now bind her are purely in her mind.

Quote

Regarding Hetan and Tool, while you certainly have a point, I think SE was trying something different with Tool. He breaks Tool down totally - he loses Toc, his tribe, his family and then finally himself. He reaches his lowest point when Toc turns him away from deaths gate and he embarks on his quest for vengeance. And then he slowly gains it all back again.

That's an interesting (and convincing) way of explaining the intention here. You got me Now it really comes down to personal taste and, unfortunately, I absolutely hate stories that sprinkle in dramatic loss only to essentially put the characters back to where they started after they've overcome their ordeal. One of the reasons why I don't like Abercrombie's First Law. But that's just me, really.

Kellanved, on 05 November 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

MoI: The fact that Brood has not killed Kallor. The man has pissed of everyone in his 100,000 years + life. Why on earth would Brood just let him hang around. The fucking guy his cursed to fail. Why would you want someone who will always fail on your side.

BH: I still cant decide whether I love or hate the continual misadventures of Dejim Nebrral.

RG: Yes I didn't like the rape scenes either. Also the constant build up for the Karsa Rhuald fight only for it to be side event during the finale.

I agree with you on the BH and the 2nd RG complaint. As for Kallor in MoI though...well, it's not like he can't get stuff done. For all we know he is a very accomplished commander, fighter, and tactician. He's cunning, versatile and has tons of experience. And his curse is kind of specific inasmuch as it fouls his personal achievements sooner or later. It's not like he constantly trips over his shoelaces or that his breeches drop in the middle of combat. For all we know, he's there as a military advisor and, well, he's probably good at that.
I believe it's fair to assume that his military expertise was crucial to fighting the Malazan Genabackan campaign to a halt. And as MBotF likes to prove time and again, stopping the Malazan's dead in their tracks is no easy feat.

This post has been edited by Zetubal: 05 November 2017 - 09:42 PM

[Giantblaze]

Karsa... Hate that dude, just wish someone would have shot him in the face with a cusser. The series wouldn't have been what it was without him but still dislike him as a character. I also dislike the inconsistency between GotM and the rest of the series, I know why but I kind of wish he went back and rewrote it to fit better because I really do like that book but it is kind of jarring when you put it with the rest. Don't get me wrong I like ICE's books too but I feel like all of the books would have been better if they were wrote by the same person and not have certain plot points picked up by someone else.

[Not Noto]

I hate Karsa too. But I hate the tiste more. Stupid emo assholes. And after ICCs later books I hate Iron Bars and most of the CG.
I hated Kyle at first but not after Assail.

Also hate Darujhistan and everything in the city. Loved TtH.

[worry]

That's a lot of hate. Are you sure you're not the bad guy?

[Not Noto]

I guess I am. I like Kallor

[Kellanved's shadow]

Not Noto, on 06 November 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

I guess I am. I like Kallor

that is blasphemy.

[rant]

To OP: The title mentions MBOTF...is that exclusive? I'm building up to making a topic RE: FoL complaints, just need to gather my thoughts....but that could easily be a post here as well. Dont want to step on spoilery toes though