[Mark Lawrence]

I'vecrowdsourced a grimdark scale of fantasy.

http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/grimdark-were-nailing-it-down.html

You can still vote on any of the books. The most grimdarkbooks so far are:

Beyond Redemption -Michael R Fletcher, Grimdark Rating 4.71
The Darkness That Comes Before -by R. Scott Bakker, Grimdark Rating 4.49
Prince of Thorns - byMark Lawrence, Grimdark Rating 4.42
The Steel Remains -by Richard K. Morgan, Grimdark Rating 4.00
The Black Company -by Glen Cook, Grimdark Rating 3.84
The Blade Itself - byJoe Abercrombie, Grimdark Rating 3.84
Gardens of the Moon -by Steven Erikson, Grimdark Rating 3.56
Elric of Melnibone -by Michael Moorcock, Grimdark Rating 3.45
The Grim Company - byLuke Scull, Grimdark Rating 3.45
A Game of Thrones -by George RR Martin, Grimdark Rating 3.41

This post has been edited by Mark Lawrence: 31 August 2017 - 11:05 AM

[Abyss]

 Mark Lawrence, on 31 August 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

I'vecrowdsourced a grimdark scale of fantasy. http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/grimdark-were-nailing-it-down.html

You can still vote on any of the books. The most grimdarkbooks so far are:

Beyond Redemption -Michael R Fletcher, Grimdark Rating 4.71
The Darkness That Comes Before -by R. Scott Bakker, Grimdark Rating 4.49
Prince of Thorns - byMark Lawrence, Grimdark Rating 4.42
The Steel Remains -by Richard K. Morgan, Grimdark Rating 4.00
The Black Company -by Glen Cook, Grimdark Rating 3.84
The Blade Itself - byJoe Abercrombie, Grimdark Rating 3.84
Gardens of the Moon -by Steven Erikson, Grimdark Rating 3.56
Elric of Melnibone -by Michael Moorcock, Grimdark Rating 3.45
The Grim Company - byLuke Scull, Grimdark Rating 3.45
A Game of Thrones -by George RR Martin, Grimdark Rating 3.41

Y'know, i wouldn't have put most of those in the grimdark subcategory.

I haven't read Fletcher or Scull, but of everyone else there... maybe PRINCE, DARKNESS sure...i suppose that's why they're at the top... in my thinkymeatz the rest are, well... 'fantasy'.

[Mark Lawrence]

 Abyss, on 31 August 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Y'know, i wouldn't have put most of those in the grimdark subcategory.

I haven't read Fletcher or Scull, but of everyone else there... maybe PRINCE, DARKNESS sure...i suppose that's why they're at the top... in my thinkymeatz the rest are, well... 'fantasy'.

The object of the exercise is to define the word by example and create a scale. That requires examples of things that aren't grimdark as well as examples of those that are or may be.

[Gorefest]

Yeah, I suspect that Erikson would actually be a tad annoyed to see his work high up on a grimdark list. With grimdark I always have the association that the writing is deliberately aimed at being as depressing, upsetting and gory as possible, whereas a lot of the books that are on that list use such descriptors more as a means to an end than as the core conceptual content. If anything, Gardens of the Moon (as part of the MBotF) actually has quite a positive and uplifting message. The Kharkanas prequel is bloody depressing though...


[edit]Ah, fair enough, hadn't read the latest post.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 31 August 2017 - 03:56 PM

[Abyss]

 Mark Lawrence, on 31 August 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 31 August 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Y'know, i wouldn't have put most of those in the grimdark subcategory.

I haven't read Fletcher or Scull, but of everyone else there... maybe PRINCE, DARKNESS sure...i suppose that's why they're at the top... in my thinkymeatz the rest are, well... 'fantasy'.

The object of the exercise is to define the word by example and create a scale. That requires examples of things that aren't grimdark as well as examples of those that are or may be.

Interesting.
There was a bit of debate around this a year or two ago iirc. It's pretty subjective... R Morgan keeps getting thrown into that category but i've never agreed he belongs there.

[Andorion]

Just curious, but is there a definition or a rough sketch for what Grimdark is right now?

[Salt-Man Z]

I've always considered "grimdark" to basically mean "bleakness for bleakness's sake".

Malazan is both grim and dark, but the overarching themes of compassion and empathy tend to tip the scales away from the grimdark label, in my mind. (The Kharkanas trilogy is another beast altogether.)

Likewise the ending of the Emperor of Thorns casts the trilogy in less of a grimdark light.

On the other hand, is there anything at all life-affirming of ASoIaF? That seems like it should be way up on the list to me.

[Andorion]

 Salt-Man Z, on 31 August 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

I've always considered "grimdark" to basically mean "bleakness for bleakness's sake".

Malazan is both grim and dark, but the overarching themes of compassion and empathy tend to tip the scales away from the grimdark label, in my mind. (The Kharkanas trilogy is another beast altogether.)

Likewise the ending of the Emperor of Thorns casts the trilogy in less of a grimdark light.

On the other hand, is there anything at all life-affirming of ASoIaF? That seems like it should be way up on the list to me.

Is there any fiction that is entirely and utterly bleak?

Only two actual examples spring to mind - Bakker's Second Apocalypse and Warhammer 40K.

[Macros]

Where's the 30k, isn't it like the founding father of that God awful term grimdark?

[amphibian]

I would put KJ Parker's Engineer series very high up on the grimdark list. And something like Spot the Dog to zero out the scale.

[End of Disc One]

I consider Grimdark to be something that is...grim and dark. That applies to most of the books on this list that I've read. But I don't really use the term because it tends to be controversial.

[worry]

Maybe at its pejorative extreme, 'grimdark' is macro-level purposeless or (solely) sensationalist, but that strikes me as the realm of amateur/pre-professional writing exercises. It's clearly not the intent of most authors to dedicate their life's work to empty gestures; and I'd imagine it's exceedingly rare for that to be the case among people who make a living writing.

ASOIAF are clearly, and maybe above all, anti-war novels. They express this often through the horrors of war, the damage it does, the people it chews up, and the cynicism it breeds. I think that works in tandem with, rather than in opposition to, GRRM's horror background and instincts, and his desire to be an entertainer. And I'm not saying the balance is always proportionate or successful, just that 'grimdark' as one item in a toolbox isn't just a black hole sucking up all other purpose. In fact, w/ GRRM in mind, I would think The Twilight Zone itself could rate very high on a 'grimdark' scale, but it's clearly not purposeless. There's a method to the meanness pretty much always.

[Macros]

is it set in a grim dark future where the God Emperor rules the Imperium of man?

No?


Not grimdark

[Coco with marshmallows]

 Macros, on 31 August 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

is it set in a grim dark future where the God Emperor rules the Imperium of man?

No?


Not grimdark

He doesn't really do much ruling given he's been comatose on life support for 10,000 years while being fed the souls of a thousand dead psykers a day to keep himself alive.

grimdark

[Mark Lawrence]

 Macros, on 31 August 2017 - 05:19 PM, said:

Where's the 30k, isn't it like the founding father of that God awful term grimdark?

Horus Rising is on the voting list, waiting for the requisite 100+ votes to reach the scoreboard. It's not got a particularly high average right now.

[Esa1996]

Why are some of them individual books and others are series? Sword of Truth at least struck my eye.

Otherwise I quite like the idea of doing such a vote.

[Mark Lawrence]

 Esa1996, on 02 September 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Why are some of them individual books and others are series? Sword of Truth at least struck my eye.

Otherwise I quite like the idea of doing such a vote.

Hopefully that's the only one. My ignorance of Goodkind's work had me thinking that was his book 1.

[Gabriele]

 Mark Lawrence, on 02 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

 Esa1996, on 02 September 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Why are some of them individual books and others are series? Sword of Truth at least struck my eye.

Otherwise I quite like the idea of doing such a vote.

Hopefully that's the only one. My ignorance of Goodkind's work had me thinking that was his book 1.

They're interchangeable anyway.

This post has been edited by Gabriele: 02 September 2017 - 11:52 AM

[Esa1996]

 Mark Lawrence, on 02 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

 Esa1996, on 02 September 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Why are some of them individual books and others are series? Sword of Truth at least struck my eye.

Otherwise I quite like the idea of doing such a vote.

Hopefully that's the only one. My ignorance of Goodkind's work had me thinking that was his book 1.

Ah, okay. The first one is called Wizard's First Rule.

Didn't notice any other such mistakes, though admittedly I've only read a third or so of the books listed

EDIT: Make that less than a quarter I've only read five of the 24 books listed, though I've heard of most of them and have planned on reading quite a few too.

This post has been edited by Esa1996: 02 September 2017 - 02:44 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

 Mark Lawrence, on 02 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Hopefully that's the only one. My ignorance of Goodkind's work had me thinking that was his book 1.

You lucky, lucky, LUCKY bastard.

Wish i was still ignorant of his works.


I made it to the chicken of ultimate evil.