[pasua]

Hey people!

I just finished reading MOI and i want to discuss some of the events.

some things before i start ranting:

-My English is not the best (Sorry about that!).

-I like the book over all, I find it to be a little bit too overhyped for some of the things explained ahead, but I am pretty satisfied with MOI.

-I've read that there is something like a sum up of the chapters without spoilers (something called TOR?) but i cant find it and i don't want to google because that's how you spoil yourself. Can someone post it please ;D?



So, lets get started:

the first half of the book is pretty good IMO. I have read over here that some people find it boring, but for me, erikson manages to build up the tension of the book in some interesting ways. The Toc arc is interesting, the BB introduction is interesting, the grey swords are cool, the main army development is solid, and the power clashes between the different leaders is super cool.

Then we have SF and her mother (I might have a very big bias against both of them but man, i find the whole poltline to be weak af.)

So for me the whole thing works until some things happen that make me lose the connection with the world and with the characters and even tho the ending is good, the history felt too artificial.

Ill point the biggest offenders for me, and lets see if you have the same feelings, or Its just a personal thing.


1) SF


I just hate the character.


I understand the idea, You have this 3 powers fighting to take control of the body and the mind (the actual silverfox) who makes a bunch of random decisions that all go wrong because all of them are plain dumb (and thats fine, she is supposed to make mistakes because she is learning, i get that).


But for me erikson droped the ball super hard with the character, she is so uninteresting and flat. I just cant connect with her, someone else has this problem?






2)the mihybe arc. (i really disliked all of it, it doesn't even help the SF character because she just ignores her because of reasons)


I just couldn't understand what is going on with her. She falls asleep half way through the story and she is dreaming of a world (a warren?) and then the god of death mummyfies her and the wolves sent by SF find a world where they arent affected by the Tlann ritual. WTF?¿?

If someone can ELI5 me the mihybe history i wouldappreciate it a lot ;D




3) The Dujek decision to rush to the city. This is the big elephant in the room for me

What the hell was that. It made the ending of the book feel so artificial for me.

We have Dujek and Jack, two military masterminds, the first being someone that can go head to head with the monstrous powers of the Caladan army just with a bunch of humans and some creativity. So this guy, decides to sacrifice 6k soldiers of the malazan army because of reasons. There is no justification for this decisions. I find it a horrible way to make dujek and Jack split.

This goes against the character of the high fist. The best thing that could have happened, was that Caladan decides to rush with him and they start a siege with a tired army. You cant have a surprise factor because of the condors, you cant trust on SF to kill the dinosaurs because she disappears (and because her character is a little bit dumdum (i just hate her ).

How can Erkson justify the the decision of his character? because it makes no sense


4) Mr kallor.

Even tho the character itself to be pretty good (he feels a little bit like a bad show supervillian, but the story behind him is interesting enough for me to accept his cliches).

The main issue with him is: what the hell are the other guys doing, He wants to kill SF, he wants to kill WJ he seems like a super powerful and crazy maniac waiting for his opportunity. No one saw the treason coming after the 2000 threats he made to all of the characters?

5) Toc.

this is a minor one, but why the fuck did he decide to throw himself into the tenescrowy army, that felt super random.






Then the ending is quite good, even tho the leg excuse for WJ to lose the duel was quite weak (cmon, the other guy is 100000000 years old, he could have beaten WJ and his character wouldn't be less awesome).


I just feel like the preparation of the ending was questionable and i can't help it!!!!!!



Ok, now some random questions.

a) do we get some explanations on itkovians powers? (I am a little bit confused with him)

is there a reason for Rakes delay in the final fight?

c)The K'rull embodiment? why is he there? what are his interest with the group of masked of a little city in the middle on nowhere? its all RAFO or i lost something in the middle of the reading?

d) What was going on with the bracelets of the first sword. (the names of the characters in the Spanish edition are translated so i hope you know what I'm talking about). did they allow the first sword to communicate with the lion god?


I hope this wall of text makes some sense!

Thats all! lets see if you can make me feel a little bit less annoyed so i can love the book as much as all of you do.

[Aptorian]

No need to make excuses. Some people will like a book. Some wont. All though I'd argue you'd have to be a monster to not like Memories of Ice.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Then we have SF and her mother (I might have a very big bias against both of them but man, i find the whole poltline to be weak af.)

...

If someone can ELI5 me the mihybe history I would appreciate it a lot.

The Mhybe storyline (Silverfox less so) has been brought up a lot as a weak and annoying interruption in the otherwise cool events of the book. You're not alone in disliking them.

The truth is that Erikson likes to explore certain themes in his books and he doesn't really care about common conceptions about how to plan your story. Erikson uses the Mhybe to discuss old age, death, the burden of childhood, etc.

On rereads I came to like the Mhybe sections more. The events of the book, what the Mhybe goes through, helps to make her ending more poignant. She dreams she is being hunted by wolves but actually they are coming to protect her and help her. Her death becomes a sacrifice that creates a whole new warren, in which a new Beast Hold is created where the souls of the T'lan Imass can travel to find a sort of eternal peace. It also becomes the basis of a new power within the Pantheon of the gods as there was needed a replacement for Fener.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

3) The Dujek decision to rush to the city. This is the big elephant in the room for me

What the hell was that. It made the ending of the book feel so artificial for me.

...

How can Erkson justify the the decision of his character? because it makes no sense

It was a tactical mistake made out of necessity and good will.

There was little trust between the forces in general. The Malazans were not sure how much they could trust Caladan Brood or other parts of the Host.

They decided to do a blitz like attack upon the Panion Domin, moving swiftly to achieve various goals. At worst all they could hope to do is gather valuable intel before the bigger battle and perhaps do some sabotage and assassinations. At best they might have been able to catch the enemy completely unprepared break the Panions before the fight even began. perhaps they would had been able to breach the city, storm the keep and kill the Panion Seer if the Lady was on their side.

Of course, all of this was done with poor intel and a poor understanding of what actually was waiting for them. Nobody knew how strong the Panion Seer was, even if the T'lan Imass suspected he was a Jaghut. Nor were they prepared for undead dinosaurs and mutant vultures.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

4) Mr kallor.

Even tho the character itself to be pretty good (he feels a little bit like a bad show supervillian, but the story behind him is interesting enough for me to accept his cliches).

The main issue with him is: what the hell are the other guys doing, He wants to kill SF, he wants to kill WJ he seems like a super powerful and crazy maniac waiting for his opportunity. No one saw the treason coming after the 2000 threats he made to all of the characters?

Kallor was a known entity. Duplicious? perhaps. A terrible creature? Certainly. But also one of the best Military minds in existence, a supreme tactician and commander and a formidable force both in terms of power and skill.

Neither Brood, nor Rake, believed he would have the balls to betray any of the two, because he rightfully feared them. But in turn, Kallor isn't a bad guy per say in this matter. What we saw was not a mortal encounter but rather another clash between an ancient warrior king and an elder goddess. That's something beyond the petty worries of mortals. Whiskeyjack wanted to be righteous and stand in between Silverfox and Kallor and he died. Too bad.

Kallor in truth never betrayed the Host. He merely sought refuge with the Chained God, since he knew he would need the CGs power to win the day and flee the wrath of Brood and Rake.

(If you can't tell I fucking love Kallor)

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

5) Toc.

this is a minor one, but why the fuck did he decide to throw himself into the tenescrowy army, that felt super random.

Toc didn't truly understand how powerful the people he was travelling with were. He didn't know the Seguleh, he wasn't aware it was a soletaken god dog he was travelling with and he just thought Envy was a High Mage. As such, he believed that hitching a ride north with the Tenescowri would be the safest(!) and easiest way to reach the Malazan army.

If he'd only known...

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Then the ending is quite good, even tho the leg excuse for WJ to lose the duel was quite weak (cmon, the other guy is 100000000 years old, he could have beaten WJ and his character wouldn't be less awesome).

Bone Hunter Spoiler

Spoiler

Whiskeyjacks leg break is actually blamed upon Hood. As you read earlier in the book (or was that Deadhouse Gates?) WJ and Fiddler once broke into a temple of Hood to save his sister. That pissed off Hood for some reason we're not clear on. Hood somehow influenced WJ's mind to resist getting his leg mended and it got him killed.

Also Kallor is a supreme sword fighter. If he hadn't stumbled on a spear butt (beware the spears in this series) he could very well had cut WJ to pieces, leg break or not.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

a) do we get some explanations on itkovians powers? (I am a little bit confused with him)

Not really. We meet other Shield Anvils in the series but it's one of those things that remain mysterious.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

is there a reason for Rakes delay in the final fight?

I believe there was some kind of trouble travelling through the Sea/Ruse that delayed them, can't remember if it was just the sorcerous toll it took on the mages and the moon or if it was chaos related as well.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

c)The K'rull embodiment? why is he there? what are his interest with the group of masked of a little city in the middle on nowhere? its all RAFO or i lost something in the middle of the reading?

K'rul is reawakening. His influece is spreading and as such he probably pops up many places. In the case of Capustan I believe it was a case of power drawing power. It was the right time to show himself.

pasua, on 03 May 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

d) What was going on with the bracelets of the first sword. (the names of the characters in the Spanish edition are translated so i hope you know what I'm talking about). did they allow the first sword to communicate with the lion god?

No real importance there, I think it was just a fun little side story. The bracelet was attuned to Treach. Maybe it wanted to reach the First Sword or maybe it just wanted more fighting.

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 03 May 2017 - 09:38 PM

[Coltaine -]

Tor Malazan Reread of the Fallen:

http://www.tor.com/s...-of-the-fallen/

Avoid the comment section. There are sometimes spoilers. The reread got sadly terminated two months ago, but they still managed to do the main series of SE and ICE, and all their posts are still available

[worry]

For the record -- and Apt you might wanna edit -- the WJ leg stuff is given in The Bonehunters, not earlier in MOI.

[Nevyn]

Lots of people don't like Silverfox.

But you can't have MOI without her. The stuff with her and the Mahybe can seem a bit overwrought. But she is a fulcrum for the story, with the reactions and ties of other characters to her driving what happens.


With the Shield Anvil stuff, keep reading and develop the best understanding you can. This is not lost in translation stuff. Some of it can be tough to grasp in English even.

[Aptorian]

worry, on 03 May 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

For the record -- and Apt you might wanna edit -- the WJ leg stuff is given in The Bonehunters, not earlier in MOI.

Editted. For some reason I remember it being an earlier story.

[pasua]

Don't get me wrong, i liked it!

the problem i find is that some of the main plots are built on dumb decisions of the characters and that threw me off a little bit. mastermind dujek and SF are the best examples.

I didn't face the same problems during the chain of dogs:
Comparing dujek to Coltain. Even tho they have a really similar character in both books, while coltaine as a strategist shows like there is a reason for his good reputation (he outplays his enemies like a boss). All dujek does during the book is agree with Brood in some less important stuff, and the only time he has to make a decision he goes boom and sacrifices his army because he is afraid of a treason from Brood (which at worst could have ended in the destruction of his army :S).

and then we have silverfox, who is just a weak character in this book and thats fine. Can't judge Erikson for failing to create interesting character after interesting character.

For me the book is a 7/10, where the previous one was a solid 8.5-9/10.



Just as a side topic. The similarities with LOTR are getting supper obvious (Aragon-WJ, and Kruppe as our fatty gandalf). There was a couple of moments where i was expecting Legolas to appear to save the day!
(and its fine, i just find it funny!)

[Aptorian]

I don't understand that comparison to LOTR at all. How is WJ like Aragorn? And how is Kruppe like Gandalf? I mean just because you wield a sword, doesn't make you a ranger, and if anything Kruppe is like a mix of Tom Bombadil and Ratagast. Tayschren could be Gandalf, what with his last minute appearance.

But seriously, nothing about the Malazan books reminds me of LOTR, except perhaps that you might think of The Crippled God as a kind of Sauron.

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 04 May 2017 - 09:59 AM

[Coltaine -]

I don't think that you can say that Dujek initially planed to sacrifice his army.

The first part of the plan worked, they captured the outer defensive fortifications by surprise and managed the defend them against the first assault. But the Seer had much more troops and monsters than they expected, so they wouldn't probably manage to hold their ground if he unleashed them. At that point Dujek made the decision to do as much damage as possible to the enemy, instead of trying to run and getting annihilated by the condors without the defence of the trenches. So that their allies may have a chance to take the city easier, at the cost of fewer lifes. The problem with this plan was that WJ and the rest of the army, as well as the Grey Swords and Trakes Legion were only a hour or so away, and Brood a few hours behind. With this info he would have probably decided to stay there and hold the trenches with the reinforcement, until everyone arrived, and start afterwards an attack on the city. Mostly a case of bad timing.

Kruppe taking the role of Gandalf would be very funny. Imagine Kruppe vs. Balrog or Kruppe saves the day at Helm's Deep . But I actually can't see the comparison between LOTR and the Malazan Books as well.

[Khellendros]

It's been years since I read the book so I may be misremembering, but wasn't Dujek's decision to strike ahead also partly forced by imperial orders, i.e. Laseen wanted to be able to claim Coral/the Domin for the Empire?

[D'rek]

Khellendros, on 05 May 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

It's been years since I read the book so I may be misremembering, but wasn't Dujek's decision to strike ahead also partly forced by imperial orders, i.e. Laseen wanted to be able to claim Coral/the Domin for the Empire?

Sort of. The Malazan leadership (incl. WJ and Dujek) were worried that if Brood got fully involved in fighting the Domin and they were losing, he would decide it was Hammer Time and destroy the Domin that way. This would indeed destroy the Domin, and would also wake up Burn - good for Brood since it both destroys the abhorrent Domin and removes Burns poisoning... but bad for the Malazan Empire since the collateral damage would cause huge earthquakes pretty much everywhere and plunge the Empire into widespread chaos.

So all throughout the campaign, Dujek and WJ are purposefully taking the initiative to be on the front lines against the Domin ahead of Brood and to try and take the Domin out fast, so Brood won't feel like he needs to hammer up.

And when the last battle isn't going well, we do get a scene where Brood starts getting ready to do exactly that... but then Rake shows up.

[Coltaine -]

About 5). Just read the scene were Kilvava and Tool met for the first time in the book. I completely forgot that K'rul speaks to Toc in his mind, and apologizes that he has to send him to the Seer. I still don't get what his plan was even after reading the book thrice.

So, I guess you can blame K'rul for Toc joining the Tenescorwi.

[Kalam&Quick]

So. about points 3, 4,


3.
with dujek rushing the city, there are plenty of reasonings sprinkled into the series. ill highlight the ones i feel are the reasons.
1. Brood and thors hammer.
it was hinted at multiple times that Brood would use his hammer if he had too. Now for guys like Brood/Rake/kallor and such, this is no big thing they can move on too a different realm and be fine. but for the mortals who inhabit the realm, like Dujek, whiskey jack, the bridge burners and the entire malazan empire, they would all be destroyed.
Dujek needed to prevent this from happening, therefore he took the forefront of the fight to prevent just that. thats why he wanted to get there first.


2. i think he knew, that as long as he himself was alive and the army was still around and standing, the empire would need him and the army to return., and as long as the empire needed him, whiskey jack would be by his side. i think he knew if they went in, made the dire sacrifice of the army, not only would That prove to Brood and Rake that the malazans were worthy of their trust(and prove kallor wrong, thus giving more trust to SF as well) but that anybody remaining would without a doubt be able to retire and just be written off as another Death in the war. Including Whiskeyjack himself. (IE: what happened to paran and the bridge burners at the end)

3. Sacrificing the army for the sake of the world, and preventing brood from needing to use his hammer, showed the ascendants a few things.
3a.. that mortals are not to be trifled with. that they can and will stand their ground when needed but that we are also not afraid to step up and do whats needed to save EVERYBODY and not just our own.
3b. that the mortals are more honorable then first thought. think about this, a SMART commander who wants to control the continent, would have allowed Brood and his army/Rake and his Tiste Andii/ The grey swords and anybody else who might have had been able to stand in their way, and let them get into he fight and struggle and then casually show up late mid-battle, when those forces are weak, and then clean up, leaving those opposing forces crippled and the malazan army still strong and in full force to prevent them from contest them taking genebackis.
but what Dejuke did? he was not being a SMART commander but a HONORABLE one. even Rake was in Awe of their sacrifice. IIRC when they discussed the fate of the city at the end, i believe it was even rake who basicly stated that After what they did to win the day, if the malazan empire wanted the city, he would freely hand it over to them as they had earned it with their blood. they had made the biggest of sacrifices and fought tooth and nail across the city so that nobody else would have too.


i think those are the main reasons for him doing this. To prevent brood from Activating the maalzan version of a full scale nuclear suicide strike,
to show the ascendants that Mortals can be good and that Evil ones like Kallor are the exception to that rule and not the other way around.
and because in the end, it allowed any remaining soldiers/bridgeburners to walk away free and clear(hoping that whiskey jack would be able to do so and him ending up dead, but the opposite happened and he ended up leading an army as a broken man while whiskey jack died)




4.) Kallor

as for Kallor, there are many things that play into the role of Kallor that i feel played into him not being taken seriously.

1. being that he is elder cursed, he is basicly like the cranky old man of the group(almost as old as brood and Rake) and while he continuously threatens everyone, he was always the kind of guy they ignored because, well, he never really followed through.
on top of that, brood knows that Kallor is no match for him and he knows Kallor knows it. same with Rake. the problem was him getting a moment away from them.


2. he was still needed in this. While i agree they should have seen it coming, keep mind he was still there for a reason. you always need an objective observer. somebody there who is NEVER afraid to say what he feels, basicly the Opposite of a "yes-man" somebody who is smart enough to point out a flaw, and is not afraid to point it out either.

3. experience. besides being a complete jerk, the dude still has 190k years of tacitical knowledge. as much as brood pokes at him, he is still the high king. he has still earned his place as a general at broods side, because he is a very smart, tactical thinker.

and lastly
4. the old saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
the point i think with brood keeping with Kallor is more a sense of pragmatism. you have this guy who has walked this planet for 200k years, who has raised some of the largest and most expansive empires, who was not afraid to literally burn it down just to spite the gods.
This is a guy who only looks out for himself and if he feels the need, will do what he can to destroy who ever stand in his way.
so the question is, would you rather have him on your side, and kinda keep in close and with a close eye on him, or just allow him to run wild with no supervision? doing what ever he chooses?