[QuickTidal]

Fairly sure he doesn't have to reiterate (out loud) what his initial intentions were (get proof to Kings Landing) after the fact to the audience. We do not need pandering of a script at that level to put togeter why they made that narrative choice. Not everyone's intentions are on the screen for the entire running time. He certainly doesn't have to say so.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 21 August 2017 - 09:25 PM

[Terez]

It's not "pandering" to be clear about what he means. The way it was presented, his main concern was that the wight they had captured would die, which is dumb reasoning.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

It's not "pandering" to be clear about what he means. The way it was presented, his main concern was that the wight they had captured would die, which is dumb reasoning.

Is it?

[Terez]

Yes, it is. If taking out the Night King also takes out most of the army, then their problems are solved and they don't need help from Cersei.

[Khellendros]

I haven't checked it out to confirm, but supposedly when Bran was scouting in the ravens a while ago, he saw the Night King in the very same spot in the middle of the lake where the fight took place. So he must have waited there for Jon and co to arrive, and then he gave them time enough for the dragons to arrive, so that he could get his hands on one. The trap was at the lake because a fire dragon + ice lake = win. He had those handy chains to drag the dragon out like he'd knew he'd need them...


If so that makes this whole episode a bit less eye-rolling - though Jon's plan was still dumb. But then all of his strategies have always been dumb, so good consistency there


The bits of this episode which I actually enjoyed the most were the A-Team walking around chatting amongst each other. This season's missed that kind of interaction.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Yes, it is. If taking out the Night King also takes out most of the army, then their problems are solved and they don't need help from Cersei.

And this info comes from what? Just Beric's word? Or the fact that some white walkers are linked to immediate groups of wights?

It's all assumption at this point...and an assumption is not worth risking everything. Make sense?

[Terez]

I never said there wasn't a good reason not to attack him. I said the reasoning they gave, in the context they gave, was dumb.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

I never said there wasn't a good reason not to attack him. I said the reasoning they gave, in the context they gave, was dumb.

They didn't give you open, scripted context is my point (hand holding). They left it up to us to sort it out, and when we use what we see with our eyes and the rest of the info we were given earlier...we infer. It's a common sense decision made by a leader to not to attack him...I don't see any reason he had to state it to me through the 4th wall.

[Terez]

It has nothing to do with hand-holding or the 4th wall. It's bad writing.

[QuickTidal]

Okay sure.

[Malankazooie]

[Coltaine -]

Nevyn, on 21 August 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Dadding, on 21 August 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

2. Gendry running, raven flying, dragon flying was too fast / time travel: According to a post on reddit, a pigeon could make the journey in something like 1.5 days (and ravens are faster, also I read something about ravens being even faster in ASOIAF universe) a dragon could make the journey in about 6 hours. Give or take a little bit. We see the gang go to sleep at least once, so they're there for quite a while. With enough food it's not that far fetched to survive that long.

They have a seemingly multiday walking trek out from the wall over uneven icy terrain. How many days? Unknown. But far enough that the arrowhead mountain can't be seen from the giant wall, nor as soon as they depart. Gendry (who is suffering from the cold, has never been north, and who Jon randomly decided was fastest without ever seeing him run) runs all the way back, not collapsing until about 50 feet from the wall. How long did THAT take. Then he is barely conscious, says something about a raven, but hasn't even given the message yet.

The guard have to revive him, get the message, and then send it via Raven. By the first scale of map I saw, the raven has to fly about 2100 miles from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. 36 hours would mean ravens flying at FIFTY EIGHT miles an hour. Your dragon is moving at 360 miles an hour (more since they aren't AT eastwatch) with a rider on its back who doesn't even have oxygen or freaking earmuffs. And this is before we get into how long to get the message relayed to her, summon her children, and provision for the trip, nor how long to search from dragonback as the raven will NOT have had coordinates.

If you can't admit that all of this is at least stretching plausibility, the issue is you. The writers took a cheap storytelling shortcut (they have taken a number this year) to get the key story elements they wanted shoehorned into the right amount of screen time. And the scenes do look cool. But trying to argue this all makes sense sounds ridiculous.

I searched today for the speed of a raven and found this discussion on the speed of Westerosi Ravens in comparison to real life super-breed high speed racing pigeons.

http://asoiaf.wester...s-fly-in-a-day/

One of them could fly the 500/600 miles from castle black to winterfell in a day. But only if it is an one day race. Ravens are slower in general, but maybe the ones used to deliver messages are also the results of centuries of breeding, so that they can match them in speed. For longer journeys in both cases their speed should drop, as they have to sleep and eat.

And apperantely someone else spend a lot of time searching the books for information about travel times:

https://docs.google....j7WM/edit#gid=5

According to this table the distance between Castle Black and Dragonstone are 1990 miles, which would take roughly six days for a raven in peak condition. Maybe starting from Eastwatch would save a few hours, but with the time Gendry needed to reach the wall it would still take roughly a week for Dany to get the message, which sounds realistic in comparison with the speed of this racing pigeons.

The table misses calculations for the travel speed with a dragon, but I agree with you that it is very unlikely that they can fly nearly twice as fast as a car at the formula one.

[Tattersail_]

This season has been fantastic. The show was always going to not be as detailed as the books, we know this. Cut out all the travelling time which will happen in the books, and get down to the main events. I am absolutely loving it. This last episode had me on the edge of my seat. There was so much to take in and enjoy. Dany has now seen the armies of the dead, and they have more information than they did before the trip. They know they can fucking throw spears with strength enough to impale a dragon and kill it. Fucking fantastic. I really did want Dany to shag Jon then and there and get it over with though, then they can do the whole Jon reveal sooner rather than later. Maybe Jon will get Dany pregnant even though she says she cannot have children.

Excited each week for this.

[Tattersail_]

Terez, on 21 August 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Yes, it is. If taking out the Night King also takes out most of the army, then their problems are solved and they don't need help from Cersei.

In that situation I'd rate the chance of them taking out the Night King, 1%, surrounded by that many dead and having to climb quite high cause the NK wasn't eben on the same level as them. Ha, I'd have said no too.

[Tattersail_]

Down South, on 22 August 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

They were fucked either way. Assault the NK they die sooner then guarding their prize. I think the chose the more real life option considering what they had to hand and they were on high ground(live as long as possible).

What is dumb is that they didn't have any DG arrows that I noticed just Jorahs knives. They could have made both options viable and viewable had they been able to fire an arrow at NK at least one time.

That's a good point, get some DG bow and arrows.

[blackzoid]

Maybe, Gendry and the Raven entered the Speed Force? Gives us all the fan-service cool scenes anyway and no need to worry about the logic of joining those scenes up in a plausible fashion. Of course looking back at press releases and interviews before the show came out in 2011, the producers sang quite a different tune. Words like "realistic" were been bandied about. Ah well.

And only killing Thoros in the group? Really? For a show/series that did in Ned Stark and the Red Wedding?
ASoFaI/GOT, how far you have fallen. Just another book series/show with plot armour for its main characters after all.
(I dont count Viserion cos Dany never had a big connection with that dragon. The show should have killed off Drogon. Much more emotional stakes then and I would have felt GoT was no longer pulling its punchs)

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 22 August 2017 - 11:17 AM

[Traveller]

I was looking at the group and apart from Jon they were all pretty much expendable. And they nearly all escaped.

When Tormund got dragged down I thought for a moment we'd get something that hurt, but they avoided that too. The dragons arrival was completely predictable, to the exact moment.

It's a shame they couldn't have worked the trip and the rescue in a more plausible way (Even just having Dany travel north shortly after Jon for some reason so she was closer would have eliminated the 'send a raven!' sore thumb.

It was still great tv though - Tormund and the Hound discussing Brienne... so damn funny.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 22 August 2017 - 11:53 AM

[Maark Abbott]

"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"Oh all right then"

*rolleyes*

[End of Disc One]

Maark Abbott, on 22 August 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"Oh all right then"

*rolleyes*

I hated that too, but didn't want to say anything to start an argument.

[Nevyn]

Maark Abbott, on 22 August 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"No"
"I feel entitled to rule because of my name, bend the knee"
"Oh all right then"

*rolleyes*

Get it right, its

Bend the knee
No, send me troops and dragons
No, I'll do that if you bend the knee
No, send me troops and dragons
No, bend the knee
Troops
Knee
Troops
Knee

On second thought, you can have my troops and dragons
Well in that case I'll bend the knee.


Dany actually pledging her support after losing a dragon and seeing the dead makes some sense (in a show that made little).

I am assuming they just had Jon then bend the knee to

1) Fast forward the love story.
2) Create a further wedge with the Northern lords and particularly Sansa to bring things to a head with the sisters and Littlefinger at Winterfell.

It really made no sense, plot wise. Jon has no more real basis for thinking the northern lords will accept this. And his whole thing is meant to be he doesn't care who bends to who as long as they fight the night king.

Then again, he is approaching Danny Rand levels of stupidity, and is Robb's brother (well, cousin actually), so maybe an impulsive choice out of blossoming love which threatens to alienate some of his most important supporters is totally in character.