[ContrarianMalazanReader]

amphibian, on 12 May 2022 - 07:32 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 March 2022 - 01:39 PM, said:

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 09 March 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

Florence Pugh is reportedly in talks to play Princess Irulan. I think she's an excellent choice.

No longer just talks. She was properly cast last night.

I'm also on board for the choice. I believe she very much can nail what Irulan is about.

Shaddam and Irulan are supposed to be of Arabic descent. Shaddam is also supposed to look about 35 despite being 75+ due to tech and the "imperial genetics".

We're not getting accurate casting and this set of casting decisions (Walken as Shaddam) is also removing some of the Arabic/Islamic context that permeates Dune the book.

I like Walken and Pugh. I also think that they are not right for this role and that the film makers/casters are denting my enthusiasm for the movie.

I don't recall the Corrinos' ancestry ever being brought up in the book.

Shaddam IV is described as having red hair and blue eyes, and Irulan is described as having blond hair and green eyes, so at least Florence Pugh is a match.

[amphibian]

Shaddam is supposed to look like a red haired Afghani - with green eyes and red hair.

I connected to that because I am Nepali American and had red hair as a child that faded to brown.

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

IMO Walken would've been much better suited to play Count Fenring.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 12 May 2022 - 07:32 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 09 March 2022 - 01:39 PM, said:

ContrarianMalazanReader, on 09 March 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

Florence Pugh is reportedly in talks to play Princess Irulan. I think she's an excellent choice.

No longer just talks. She was properly cast last night.

I'm also on board for the choice. I believe she very much can nail what Irulan is about.

Shaddam and Irulan are supposed to be of Arabic descent.

This is...not accurate.

Firstly, Leto Atreides and Shaddam IV are cousins. And not just in the royal "we refer to even distant relations as cousins" cousins. Rather they actually share a grandparent. As such, I would find it intensely strange for a single generation to produce both an "arabic" and "Spanish" heritage (that we know Leto has).

And other than borrow terms like Padishah, or the actual name being "Shaddam" which is similar to Saddam, there is nowhere in Herbert's narrative where the Emperor is described as anything at all really "race-wise" beyond mild physical characteristics, "a slim and elegant man, with red hair, a thin face, and cold eyes."....for further proof of this we can go to Herbert's description of Irulan, his daughter "a tall blonde woman, green-eyed, a face of patrician beauty, classic in its hauteur, untouched by tears, completely undefeated." Neither of these descriptions fit the narrative of "they should be Arabic"...especially Irulan. Moreover I always assumed that all humans of there future would have a sort of brown skin tone of how much mixing of the earth-sourced races would have done over the millennia. So ascribing a certain actor to the role who fits it for gravitas is fine by me.

And let's not forget that the casting of this/these films has been QUITE diverse, if not exceptionally diverse. Oscar Isaac is the first Latin man to play Leto (who has latin heritage), Bautisa is Greek/Filipino, Sharon Duncan-Brewster is not only a gender flipped Liet Kynes, but is also a WOC, Stephen McKinley Henderson is part Mongolian and Chinese, Zendaya is obviously a WOC, Chang Chen is Taiwanese, Momoa is native Polynesian, Javier Bardem is Spanish, Babs Olusanmokun is from Lagos Nigeria, Golda Rosheuvel is Guyanese, Roger Yuan is Chinese....to say that casting Chris Walken as Shaddam is offsides is kind of rank when most of the main cast of the first film was this diverse, either to suit or even against character source description.

amphibian, on 12 May 2022 - 07:32 PM, said:

We're not getting accurate casting and this set of casting decisions (Walken as Shaddam) is also removing some of the Arabic/Islamic context that permeates Dune the book.

Come on. Like I understand the drive for diverse casting is important so that roles get spread around...but inventing the notion that Shaddam and Irulan are racially Arabic 5 million years into the future when all evidence either points to the contrary, especially with regards to Irulan. Dude. This ain't the hill.

amphibian, on 12 May 2022 - 07:32 PM, said:

I like Walken and Pugh. I also think that they are not right for this role and that the film makers/casters are denting my enthusiasm for the movie.

So the other casting modifications to source material are fine, but these two are beyond the pale?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2022 - 11:52 AM, said:

Firstly, Leto Atreides and Shaddam IV are cousins. And not just in the royal "we refer to even distant relations as cousins" cousins. Rather they actually share a grandparent. As such, I would find it intensely strange for a single generation to produce both an "arabic" and "Spanish" heritage (that we know Leto has).

And other than borrow terms like Padishah, or the actual name being "Shaddam" which is similar to Saddam, there is nowhere in Herbert's narrative where the Emperor is described as anything at all really "race-wise" beyond mild physical characteristics, "a slim and elegant man, with red hair, a thin face, and cold eyes."....for further proof of this we can go to Herbert's description of Irulan, his daughter "a tall blonde woman, green-eyed, a face of patrician beauty, classic in its hauteur, untouched by tears, completely undefeated." Neither of these descriptions fit the narrative of "they should be Arabic"...especially Irulan. Moreover I always assumed that all humans of there future would have a sort of brown skin tone of how much mixing of the earth-sourced races would have done over the millennia. So ascribing a certain actor to the role who fits it for gravitas is fine by me.

And let's not forget that the casting of this/these films has been QUITE diverse, if not exceptionally diverse. Oscar Isaac is the first Latin man to play Leto (who has latin heritage), Bautisa is Greek/Filipino, Sharon Duncan-Brewster is not only a gender flipped Liet Kynes, but is also a WOC, Stephen McKinley Henderson is part Mongolian and Chinese, Zendaya is obviously a WOC, Chang Chen is Taiwanese, Momoa is native Polynesian, Javier Bardem is Spanish, Babs Olusanmokun is from Lagos Nigeria, Golda Rosheuvel is Guyanese, Roger Yuan is Chinese....to say that casting Chris Walken as Shaddam is offsides is kind of rank when most of the main cast of the first film was this diverse, either to suit or even against character source description.

... and yet no Muslims in the main cast, and no people of Middle Eastern or North African ethnicities?... Despite being so heavily influenced by Islamic and Middle Eastern cultures? IDK if you think they should just get whoever they judge to be 'the best' actors for the parts, without regards to any social justice or anti-colonial arguments, but people who actually are Muslim or who grew up immersed in the cultural elements being adapted do at the very least bring an interesting perspective and a different type of depth to the parts.

'Dune' appropriates Islamic, Middle Eastern tropes without real inclusion, critics say (nbcnews.com)

As for the argument that a Spanish person couldn't have a cousin who looks 'Arabic'... first of all, it's not extremely rare for cousins (or even siblings) of 'mixed race' ancestry to look like 'different races'. Secondly:


'Many Spaniards found to have Jewish or Muslim ancestory

Study shows that one in three have traces of Jews or Moors forced to convert or leave Spain in 15th and 16th centuries'

Many Spaniards found to have Jewish or Muslim ancestory | Spain | The Guardian

'propose that the Moorish occupation left Saqaliba[40] and some Arab-Berber genetic influence mainly in southern regions of Iberia.

The most recent and comprehensive genomic studies establish that North African genetic ancestry can be identified throughout most of the Iberian Peninsula, ranging from 0% to 11%, but is highest in the south and west'

Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula - Wikipedia

And the Atreides claim to be of Greek ancestry fwiw.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2022 - 02:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

It's a sci-fi story my guy. So no, I don't expect them to take into account any social justice or anti-colonial arguments...the fuck?

You literally cannot win apparently. Cast the whole thing across the spectrum and you still get shit on? I don't know why people bother.

If we are going to cut into the minutae of race for a fucking fictional tale set tens of thousands of years in the future out in the stars...then I'm afraid we've all lost the plot.

Diverse casting is the most important thing to be here for the actors getting roles, and they've done that.

Any relevancy to actual real life cultures on earth now....are not what Dune is about.

Like you know Dune is set like 20,000 years in the future right?

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, I applaud diversity in casting, but what has happened in the Dune movies and TV shows has often been white washing.

Did you know Gurney Halleck is a "Moor"? He's dark skinned and the references Herbert uses in describing him connect heavily to Andalusian Spain and an inverse of colonization in that the white Harkonnens destroyed his people's way of life. Yet every iteration on screen has him being white. Patrick Stewart, PH Moriarty, and Josh Brolin are all fine actors - but they're not North African/Spanish Arabs. https://hdernity.med...ce-682bfd99c760

Furthermore, the books spend enormous amounts of time with the Atreides and barely any with the Corrinos. Yet the Atreides do religious rituals descended from Islamic ones and have the Spanish + Moorish/Maghreb influence in what they do, as well as the Greek.

https://twitter.com/...BZwgz4MJDQ&s=19

Shaddam shares a grandfather with Leto. I'm inferring that they share a melange if you will of Arabic traditions and body composition - including Shaddam's red hair, green eyes, and tan skin which are traits made famous in the regions that are of the former Persian empire and which pops up in my family over in the Indian subcontinent because their ancestors moved over as part of the Indo Aryan invasion.

The books are suffused with Arabic, Andalusian, Greek, Persian, North African cultural traditions, references to real Earth Islamic history ancient and modern to the writing, and yet the casting doesn't feature Arabs or Islamic actors and the writers room doesn't include people from that background either. This is an actual failing of the movie and it's changed certain things about Dune in a negative way.

I also know Babs in real life and was thrilled he was in the movie because it's good for his career. But I can say that the handling of these issues is a thing I see and don't like at the same time.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 13 May 2022 - 03:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Here's my issue. 20,000 years in our future, and we will still have 1:1 allegories for racial makeup from earth and places like Moorish Spain? I highly doubt it.

This is why I have zero issues with all the casting against source material in most things, Dune included, becuase who is to say what people will look like and how they will descend in 20k years. So you wanna gender flip Kynes, and make her a black woman? More power to you, works for me.

But if you're telling me racial makeup of specific land regions of the earth make it pure and undiluted 20,000 years into the future, I'd have to say not a chance.

It's just upsetting to me that even when the film casting tries to be diverse, and everyone largely accepts it....but cast Chris Walken and Florence Pugh are Shaddam and Irulan (blonde and green eyed, remember) as white people and now it's an issue?

Quote

The books are suffused with Arabic, Andalusian, Greek, Persian, North African cultural traditions, references to real Earth Islamic history ancient and modern to the writing, and yet the casting doesn't feature Arabs or Islamic actors and the writers room doesn't include people from that background either. This is an actual failing of the movie and it's changed certain things about Dune in a negative way.

Yes, but thinned down to words and ideas after 20,000 years in the stars. Frank took inspiration from all of them, but if you trying to tell me he intended that everyone would look a certain way in his books about humanity as a whole in the stars, I would disagree.

I would also challenge you that Shaddam was EVER suppose to be a direct Afghan allegory. Not a chance.

[Gorefest]

By claiming that Islamic influences and Muslim actors have been cut out or short changed is an oversimplification. We are talking about a book that was written in the 1960s when Islamic culture itself was still very exotic to Western minds. If the makers of the Dune movie would have tightly stuck to the books on this, you'd have huge outcries towards the other end of the spectrum about cultural appropriation and such. You cannot win. A term like 'Jihad' has a very different connotation in 2022 than it did in 1965. In its original context it is supposed to be a struggle for self-improvement and upholding and extending justice. But these days, when you say 'Jihad' most non-Muslim people will immediately think of 9/11, IS and terrorism. So the film makers early on decided to ditch the overly Muslim tropes in favour of a more general inclusivity and diversity. It is rather ironic that by making that choice, they are now being accused of doing the exact opposite. If you stick to the source material, you'll have people shouting about cultural appropriation or terrorism, if you steer away from those aspects of the book you'll get people shouting about islamophobia or unfaithfulness to the source material. You just cannot win. But in my view they did the best they could and made the least damaging choice available, resulting in a fantastically epic and engaging film that retains the core message and feel of the book(s) while being one of the most diverse and inclusive films ever.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 13 May 2022 - 04:16 PM, said:

By claiming that Islamic influences and Muslim actors have been cut out or short changed is an oversimplification. We are talking about a book that was written in the 1960s when Islamic culture itself was still very exotic to Western minds. If the makers of the Dune movie would have tightly stuck to the books on this, you'd have huge outcries towards the other end of the spectrum about cultural appropriation and such. You cannot win. A term like 'Jihad' has a very different connotation in 2022 than it did in 1965. In its original context it is supposed to be a struggle for self-improvement and upholding and extending justice. But these days, when you say 'Jihad' most non-Muslim people will immediately think of 9/11, IS and terrorism. So the film makers early on decided to ditch the overly Muslim tropes in favour of a more general inclusivity and diversity. It is rather ironic that by making that choice, they are now being accused of doing the exact opposite. If you stick to the source material, you'll have people shouting about cultural appropriation or terrorism, if you steer away from those aspects of the book you'll get people shouting about islamophobia or unfaithfulness to the source material. You just cannot win. But in my view they did the best they could and made the least damaging choice available, resulting in a fantastically epic and engaging film that retains the core message and feel of the book(s) while being one of the most diverse and inclusive films ever.

'You just cannot win'? Simply including some Muslim (particularly Sufi) and some Middle Eastern or North African actors in the main cast would have gone a long way:

'the lack of actors of MENA descent or Islamic faith is a hole that’s hard to ignore, and the extracted elements feel like fetishization.

“It’s like we’re stuck in this creative colonialism,” she said. “Where our homes and foods and songs and languages are just right for Western stories, but we humans are never enough to be in them.”'

'Dune' appropriates Islamic, Middle Eastern tropes without real inclusion, critics say (nbcnews.com)

As for the connotations of 'Jihad' in the novels:

'the jihad of Frank Herbert’s imagination was not the same as ours, but drew from the Sufi-led jihads against French, Russian, and English imperialism in the 19th and mid-20th century. The narrative exhibits this influence of Sufism and its reading of jihad, where, unlike in a crusade, a leader’s spiritual transformation determined the legitimacy of his war.

In Dune, Paul must drink the “water of life”, to enter (to quote Dune) the “alam al-mithal, the world of similitudes, the metaphysical realm where all physical limitations are removed,” and unlock a part of his consciousness to become the Mahdi, the messianic figure who will guide the jihad. The language of every aspect of this process is the technical language of Sufism.'

In Dune, Paul Atreides led a jihad, not a crusade | Arts and Culture | Al Jazeera

... not only the language, but the form beyond the language (and beyond all forms)? ... the confluence (with productive mis/reinterpretations, recontextualizations) of (at least aspects of) Sufi mysticism with 1960's psychedelics movements, etc. (Appropriation but based on what I've read largely not misappropriation to a major extent... but that's another (desert) planet of worms.)

[amphibian]

For a film about a set of cultures steeped in Islamic/Middle Eastern/North African traditions, words, practices, dress, and ways of thinking from this Earth right now, there's functionally none of these people as main cast characters in the movies or the TV shows. I know the setting is 20k years from now, but the movie is being made now with people from here, using a series of books that were extremely interested in honoring, involving, and questioning Islamic + colonial conflicts.

That's a failure. That's not the least damaging choice. I want Villeneuve and the others to do better than this because they're quite capable of it.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 13 May 2022 - 05:36 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I still think they should have cast Matt Le Blanc as Paul Atreides so they could get the line "How you Dune?" Into the script and that they didn't is a wasted opportunity

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Herbert [...] took an unusually strong interest in Indigenous communities in the Pacific Northwest, particularly the Quileute Nation. Conversations with Quileute interlocutors both inspired Dune and help explain Herbert's turn toward environmentalism.'

The Quileute Dune: Frank Herbert, Indigeneity, and Empire | Journal of American Studies | Cambridge Core

'How Is "Dune" So Prescient About Climate Change? Thank This Native American Tribe.

[...] How did Mr. Herbert foresee our predicament? The environmentalism of "Dune" had a source close to home. Native communities had suffered some of the worst environmental harms in the midcentury United States, and Mr. Herbert had close contacts among the Quileute and Hoh peoples of the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. Indigenous environmentalists alerted him to how much damage industrialism had wrought. They warned him that it could become planetary in scope, a warning that he passed on in his influential novel.

[...] shared with him the contents of an ecology book, which he'd borrowed from a Native friend, warning that a similar fate might await the entire world. "White men are eating the Earth," he told Mr. Herbert. "They're going to turn this whole planet into a wasteland, just like North Africa." Though initially "startled" by that view, Mr. Herbert agreed, responding that the world would become a "big dune," [...]

Mr. Herbert's fascination with Indigenous societies shines through in his novel. "Dune" follows Paul Atreides, a young man from another planet, as he navigates the desiccated planet of Dune. Paul's guide is an older native-born man, Stilgar, who teaches him to live off the land, much as Henry Martin taught a young Frank Herbert. Stilgar's people, the Fremen, shape their society around the giant sandworms that swim through Dune's desert waves — not unlike the whales that Quileutes were still harpooning in living memory. As he learns Fremen ways, Paul comes to reject the imperial society he was born into and, in a sequel, scorns "believers in Manifest Destiny."

Native peoples were at the cutting edge of environmentalism in Mr. Herbert's day, and they still are.'

Before 'Dune,' Frank Herbert Learned From Native Americans - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

... so it would also be good to include actors from indigenous groups of the Pacific Northwest in the main cast. Though the Islamic and Middle Eastern influences are much more overt and culturally specific....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2022 - 06:26 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Of course it's important to recognize that the Quileute Nation have their own distinctive culture---which was misrepresented and misappropriated by the Twilight books and films. And asking specifically for a Quileute Nation actor in the main cast when there are only around 2000 current members of the Nation may be excessively limiting.

But Herbert was also influenced by other Pacific Northwest indigenous groups. Two acclaimed Ojibwe actors immediately spring to mind---Cara Gee (The Expanse) and D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai (Reservation Dogs).

'The phenomena of the Twilight series has had vast economic benefits for Summit Entertainment, Stephenie Meyer, the tiny town of Forks, Washington, and even Nordstrom department stores, but the Tribe whose culture was represented for background fodder in the teenage love story, has seen little benefit.'

'In collaboration with the Quileute Tribe, this site seeks to inform Twilight fans, parents, teachers, and others about the real Quileute culture, which indeed has a wolf origin story, a historic relationship with the wolf as demonstrated in songs, stories, and various art forms, as well as a modern, multi-dimensional community with a sophisticated governance system. We also hope to offer a counter narrative to The Twilight Saga's stereotypical representations of race, class, and gender, and offer resources for a more meaningful understanding of Native American life and cultures.'

Truth vs. Twilight

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 May 2022 - 11:18 PM

[QuickTidal]

Fuck me, what a lot of words for a goddamn sci-fi movie. It’s simply not that deep.

I guess some are simply never going to be pleased, so I hope casting directors just do what is best for their film, and bugger all the diatribes.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2022 - 01:21 PM, said:

Fuck me, what a lot of words for a goddamn sci-fi movie. It's simply not that deep.

I guess some are simply never going to be pleased, so I hope casting directors just do what is best for their film, and bugger all the diatribes.

The film is explicitly trying to be deep:

'"Dreams are messages from the deep." Those are the first words that appear on the screen in Denis Villenueve's 2021 film[...]

The book contains dreams within dreams. Dreams of a future humanity in all of its flawed complexity. [...] It uses Middle Eastern history to paint a dream of a future which is both futuristic and ancient, exhilarating and full of tension. It is a story about the perils of imperialism, messianic beliefs, and environmental degradation. It is a story about us.'

Bonus: The Deep History of Dune : Throughline : NPR


'The novel "Dune" had deep Islamic influences. The movie erases them.

[...] "Dune" is a multilayered allegory [...]

[...] Herbert's explicit aim to counter what he saw as a bias "not to study Islam, not to recognize how much it has contributed to our culture." The film's approach backfires: In justifying the film's exclusion of Muslim and MENA creatives, it truly relegates "Dune's" Muslimness to exotic aesthetics. The resulting film is both more Orientalist than the novel and less daring.

[...] skirts the novel's subversive ideas[...]

[...]The novel didn't rely on such easy binaries: It interrogated the layered, particular ways that race, religion and empire can relate to each other. [...]

[...] This all feels like a missed opportunity. The film could have hired Muslim and MENA talent to lean into these influences, elevating the good and improving the bad.'

Herbert's 'Dune' had deep Muslim influences. Villeneuve's movie erases them. - The Washington Post

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 14 May 2022 - 04:01 PM

[Macros]

I feel like I need to weigh in here


*Deep inhale*



NNNNENEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDSSSSSSS

[stone monkey]

Azath Vitr (D, on 14 May 2022 - 04:00 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 14 May 2022 - 01:21 PM, said:

Fuck me, what a lot of words for a goddamn sci-fi movie. It's simply not that deep.

I guess some are simply never going to be pleased, so I hope casting directors just do what is best for their film, and bugger all the diatribes.

The film is explicitly trying to be deep:
[Etc....]

All the heavy lifting in this sentence is being done by the word "trying". At best, it's depth might be labelled undergraduate.

[Gorefest]

To be fair, it is difficult for a dune to be deep. At the very least you'd need it to be above sea level.

[LinearPhilosopher]

How do we even ascertain what is deep? Feel like everyone who uses that word has a different barometer.