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One China Policy I had no idea it was this bad!

#1 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:26 PM

https://en.wikipedia...ne-China_policy

So President Elect Trump accepted a congratulatory call from Taiwan and its become a shit storm in a tea cup. To be honest I dont really care about that part. The part which blew my mind was that apparently its the official policy of nearly every country in the world to not recognize Taiwan. At least not officially. They prescribe to the One China Policy which recognizes that mainland china is the true owner and government of Taiwan. Yet they unofficially have relations with Taiwan. To me this seems to be an amazing world wide conspiracy of just pretending Taiwan does not exist, to let China save face? America gives Taiwan military support and weapon sales but apparently does not recognize the countries independence? I cant wrap my head around this. What does this say about international relations.

This post has been edited by Cause: 13 December 2016 - 03:36 PM

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#2 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

What about the situation do you find particularly bad? Assuming you learned something new from the article about the relationship between China and Taiwan that you weren't aware of before now?

This post has been edited by Apt: 13 December 2016 - 03:35 PM

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#3 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:40 PM

 Apt, on 13 December 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

What about the situation do you find particularly bad? Assuming you learned something new from the article about the relationship between China and Taiwan that you weren't aware of before now?


Sorry accidentally hit enter before I managed to complete my post
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#4 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:53 PM

It is kind of bizarre when the US sends a navy frigate or something to patrol the waters west of Taiwan in order to - as far as the US government is concerned - defend one part of China from another part of China.

Personally, I think the whole thing is stupid and everyone should just get over it. If some of the major countries just started acknowledging Taiwan openly, I don't think there would actually be much backlash... China would be pissed for a little while but ultimately their economic power is predicated on continuing to do business with other countries, they wouldn't be able to impose humongous export bans on numerous other major countries successfully. And then all the minor countries follow suit, China would get over it and we could all move on.


Relatedly, AFAIK China has been very secretive about what it is planning to do (if anything) in the 2040s when the agreements granting Hong Kong and Macau autonomy expire.

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#5 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 03:55 PM

 Cause, on 13 December 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

What does this say about international relations.


That world politics really suck.
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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:16 PM

 Cause, on 13 December 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

https://en.wikipedia...ne-China_policy

So President Elect Trump accepted a congratulatory call from Taiwan and its become a shit storm in a tea cup. To be honest I dont really care about that part. The part which blew my mind was that apparently its the official policy of nearly every country in the world to not recognize Taiwan. At least not officially. They prescribe to the One China Policy which recognizes that mainland china is the true owner and government of Taiwan. Yet they unofficially have relations with Taiwan. To me this seems to be an amazing world wide conspiracy of just pretending Taiwan does not exist, to let China save face? America gives Taiwan military support and weapon sales but apparently does not recognize the countries independence? I cant wrap my head around this. What does this say about international relations.


Basically it's because of this:

1) Someone recognises Taiwan.
2) China invades Taiwan.

And that's pretty much it. China has made it abundantly clear that they consider Taiwan part of their sovereign territory and they will use military force to reclaim it before they let it declare independence or align with a foreign power. It's a very sore point for them as they consider it unfinished busines from the revolution.

Everything else, negotiations about the South China Sea, about the position of South Korea and North Korea, Japanese relations, the Philippines, the border dispute with India, fine, have a talk about that all you want, but China has drawn a massive red line around Taiwan and if anyone screws with that, China has indicated that it will not hesitate to act.

They don't want to militarily invade Taiwan, of course. Taiwan will defend itself and it will cost Chinese lives and involve tremendous infrastructure damage (that China will then have to pay for), plus it will be very expensive at a moment when the Chinese economy is not as healthy as they would like it to be. But they will do it if they believe it is justified, and America sticking it's nose in on Taiwan will certainly constitute that justification. They flew a nuclear bomber over Taiwan just based on Trump taking a phone call from their government. Are China bluffing? Maybe but probably not. About anything else, maybe, but China knows that the United States will not go to war over Taiwan (unlike Japan or South Korea) and if it slaps the US down in the region, they get a tremendous boost to their apparent prestige.
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#7 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:35 PM

Its been my understanding that the Chinese military as it stands has no chance of taking Taiwan. They have the worlds largest army and no means to take it anywhere across water?
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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:56 PM

 Werthead, on 13 December 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:


Basically it's because of this:

1) Someone recognises Taiwan.
2) China invades Taiwan.



As I understand it, it's quite a bit more complex than that actually.

Taiwan officially is the Republic of China (ROC)

China officially is the People’s Republic of China (PRC)

Some countries (I think about 22 of them) recognize the ROC as the legitimate government of China (meaning that all of mainland China is considered to be run from Taipei, Taiwan), the rest of the globe either recognize PRC as the legitimate government of China (and therefore Taiwan as well), or fall into a nebulous third category who recognize the PRC, but have diplomatic relations with Taiwain as well as IF it were a sovereign nation, when it's not.

Even the government of Taiwan doesn't consider themselves NOT part of China...the difference is in the details.

Taipei and Beijing are basically two competing governments of the same country, China, both claiming to be the legitimate government of all of China.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 December 2016 - 06:00 PM

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#9 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:59 PM

 QuickTidal, on 13 December 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

 Werthead, on 13 December 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:


Basically it's because of this:

1) Someone recognises Taiwan.
2) China invades Taiwan.



It's quite a bit more complex than that actually.

Taiwan officially is the Republic of China (ROC)

China officially is the People’s Republic of China (PRC)

Some countries (I think about 22 of them) recognize the ROC as the legitimate government of China (meaning that all of mainland China is considered to be run from Taipei, Taiwan), the rest of the globe either recognize PRC as the legitimate government of China (and therefore Taiwan as well), or fall into a nebulous third category who recognize the PRC, but have diplomatic relations with Taiwain as well as IF it were a sovereign nation, when it's not.

Even the government of Taiwan doesn't consider themselves NOT part of China...the difference is in the details.

Taipei and Beijing are basically two competing governments of the same country, China, both claiming to be the legitimate government of all of China.


What amazes me is that the defacto truth is not recognize. Mainland china will never be run from Taiwan and its unlikely china will ever actually commit to a War to take Taiwan back. At what point do they both and the rest of the world recognize this truth. It seems to me that most of the world is just pretending.

The army of Taiwan no longer even pretends they could invade the mainland and focuses soley on defence

This post has been edited by Cause: 13 December 2016 - 06:02 PM

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#10 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:06 PM

With regards to the PRC, the same issue exists with Tibet. It is also not recognized as a sovereign nation. It's considered an occupied part of China by the PRC. And though the rest of the world has diplomatic relations with Tibet, it is (as far as I know) still not recognized as a country by anyone, and for the same reasons I THINK.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 December 2016 - 06:06 PM

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#11 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:19 PM

 QuickTidal, on 13 December 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

With regards to the PRC, the same issue exists with Tibet. It is also not recognized as a sovereign nation. It's considered an occupied part of China by the PRC. And though the rest of the world has diplomatic relations with Tibet, it is (as far as I know) still not recognized as a country by anyone, and for the same reasons I THINK.


Tibet thing is made more difficult by the fact that it's technically technically a theocracy, with Dalai Lama leading a government in exile as well as a worldwide religion.

The China-Taiwan thing was de-facto resolved when Taiwan lost the UN Security Council seat to PRC. Ever since then, PRC has ton of diplo-muscle to flex at anyone trying to support/recognize Taiwan. Iirc, during the Yugoslav wars, FYROM recognized Taiwa in exchange for economic incentives. PRC then started blocking Security Council resolutions re: UN help to FYROM in dealing with the who fallout of Yugoslavia imploding. And they stuck to it until FYROM too their recognition of Taiwan back.

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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#12 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:51 PM

 QuickTidal, on 13 December 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

With regards to the PRC, the same issue exists with Tibet. It is also not recognized as a sovereign nation. It's considered an occupied part of China by the PRC. And though the rest of the world has diplomatic relations with Tibet, it is (as far as I know) still not recognized as a country by anyone, and for the same reasons I THINK.



Except tibet actually is occupied or is actually apart of china in truth. Taiwan is without question its own country at this point.
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#13 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:04 PM

It may seem a silly distinction, but what happens when you recognize Taiwan, and China's response is to invade and occupy?

The farce is being played on both sides. China gets to pretend Taiwan is not independent. Taiwan gets to be more or less independent as long as everyone plays along.

The irony of course is that pre Nixon, the Us and its allies recognized Taiwan and not China (or rather the government in Taiwan as the government of all China). When they normalized relations with China, they basically moved towards the set up they have now, which is pretty much the reverse.
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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:15 PM

So just to clarify, cause: the fact that you think this is silly and makes no sense proves that you're actually human and not one of the lizard-androids that make up the "politicians and major executives" class. Those people have their own logic, and common sense is rarely a factor in it.

But since they have the power, the rest of us have to live with this logic.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#15 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:35 PM

I'm by no means any sort of expert on... any of this. But I did some reading around and have formulated a bigger opinion, and I feel like sharing both. Sorry for the length!


 QuickTidal, on 13 December 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Even the government of Taiwan doesn't consider themselves NOT part of China...the difference is in the details.

Taipei and Beijing are basically two competing governments of the same country, China, both claiming to be the legitimate government of all of China.




Yes, after the Republic of China government first fled to Taiwan they declared that they were still the legitimate government of ALL of China, and their goal was to re-unify China under their rule. They kept that stance for decades, even after the UN gave their seat to the PRC in the early '70s.

But keep in mind that the ROC government at that time was a one-party (Kuomintang, or KMT) system in a constant state of martial law! (Not that I'm saying that's automatically a bad thing... in fact the KMT did a great job of building Taiwan's economy and beginning to develop diplomatic relations with mainland China.) The only political party allowed had previously been the ruling party of all of China, and their official stance was that they wanted to once again rule a unified China, and that was that.

But in the 1980s and 90s the KMT gradually removed martial law and converted to a democratic system. Now there are numerous parties running for office, with a variety of stances on independence vs reunification under the PRC vs reunification under the ROC vs doing nothing, etc. The KMT themselves don't even necessarily claim to want to re-unify China under the ROC anymore: in 2003 their chairman and presidential candidate Lien Chan said that the party didn't want to be considered "pro-reunificationist" anymore (and at that time they simply advocated for maintaining the status quo).

From 1992 (the first democratic election for president) onwards, the KMT (now favouring a sort of "status quo: we're special and independent but not a country, and we have no wish to re-unify" stance) and the Democratic Progress Party (which in general favours a gradual approach towards independence) have traded administrations:

1992-2000 = KMT
2000-2008 = DPP
2008-2016 = KMT
2016-present = DPP


There's been some flip-flopping on government steps taken towards "Taiwanization", where the DPP will rename something currently called "______ of China" to "_____ of Taiwan" or even just "_____ of China (Taiwan)" but then the KMT reversed it back in their 2008-2016 administration. And yet, even the 1992-2000 KMT-party president of the country was a big supporter of Taiwanization.

(Taiwanization is not quite the same as Taiwanese independence - Taiwanization is more like making the Taiwanese language the official government language, or taking the school history books that focus only on the history of China (and therefore rarely discuss Taiwan since it was usually a backwater throughout Chinese history) and writing their own history books that go into greater detail on the history of Taiwan themselves.)

So now the DPP has recently been put back in charge, by a landslide, after the KMT spent the last 8 years largely maintaining the status quo (worth noting that the DPP is the most moderate of the pro-independence parties, though - in practice they seem to largely advocate for very gradually working towards independence so as to get there eventually without pissing off the PRC.

Time will tell, maybe the elections will keep flip-flopping back, or maybe not, but as of right now it seems to me like the people of Taiwan themselves want to eventually reach independence.

In any case, the old notion that the ROC doesn't want independence, only to re-unify all of China under their rule, is now outdated. There's only one party - the New Party - which still advocates for that, and they haven't won a seat since 2008. So no, recognizing the ROC as a sovereign government is *not* recognizing the ROC as the government of mainland China instead of the PRC. The current ruling party of the ROC (the DPP) does not agree with or recognize the PRC's "One China Policy" (via the "1992 Consensus").

The PRC has so far refused to have any official diplomatic relations with a country that does recognize the ROC as an sovereign government (of Taiwan, or of any other lands for that matter), but that doesn't mean the country in question is supporting the idea of reunification under the ROC. Most, if not all, of the countries that have official diplomatic ties with Taiwan would also have them with China if China were willing.

I think we're currently seeing Taiwan themselves figure out what they want, and going by the current trends they seem to be favouring a gradual move towards independence. But it doesn't help that the US has sometimes actively stated that they don't want to see even the smallest steps towards independence or greater self-identity taken by the Taiwanese government. I hope that if and when the time comes for Taiwan to become officially independent (no declaration necessarily needed - the DPP, for example, argues that the 1992 Consensus was neither official nor binding and legally speaking they are in fact already two sovereign nations) that nations like the US, Canada, India, Russia, Australia, etc, will remember our own transitions from being part of a larger nation to our own recognized independence and support it.

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 10:18 PM

 Cause, on 13 December 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 13 December 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

With regards to the PRC, the same issue exists with Tibet. It is also not recognized as a sovereign nation. It's considered an occupied part of China by the PRC. And though the rest of the world has diplomatic relations with Tibet, it is (as far as I know) still not recognized as a country by anyone, and for the same reasons I THINK.



Except tibet actually is occupied or is actually apart of china in truth. Taiwan is without question its own country at this point.


Is it? They dont even think that themselves. The taiwanese government considers itself the rightful government of all of China (which they mean to be China + Taiwan) and so do the Chinese. It's a bit like having a northern and southern confederacy in the USA in a civil war stalemate where both sides claim to be the rightful rulers. Only in this case one side is significantly smaller than the other and most of the rest of the world thinks of them as two separate countries. Just because we call the big mainland bit China and refer to the island as the 'nation' Taiwan doesnt make it technically correct.
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Posted 14 December 2016 - 12:47 AM

 D, on 13 December 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

I'm by no means any sort of expert on... any of this. But I did some reading around and have formulated a bigger opinion, and I feel like sharing both. Sorry for the length!

Yes, after the Republic of China government first fled to Taiwan they declared that they were still the legitimate government of ALL of China, and their goal was to re-unify China under their rule. They kept that stance for decades, even after the UN gave their seat to the PRC in the early '70s.

There's been some flip-flopping on government steps taken towards "Taiwanization", where the DPP will rename something currently called "______ of China" to "_____ of Taiwan" or even just "_____ of China (Taiwan)" but then the KMT reversed it back in their 2008-2016 administration. And yet, even the 1992-2000 KMT-party president of the country was a big supporter of Taiwanization.

(Taiwanization is not quite the same as Taiwanese independence - Taiwanization is more like making the Taiwanese language the official government language, or taking the school history books that focus only on the history of China (and therefore rarely discuss Taiwan since it was usually a backwater throughout Chinese history) and writing their own history books that go into greater detail on the history of Taiwan themselves.)

So now the DPP has recently been put back in charge, by a landslide, after the KMT spent the last 8 years largely maintaining the status quo (worth noting that the DPP is the most moderate of the pro-independence parties, though - in practice they seem to largely advocate for very gradually working towards independence so as to get there eventually without pissing off the PRC.

Time will tell, maybe the elections will keep flip-flopping back, or maybe not, but as of right now it seems to me like the people of Taiwan themselves want to eventually reach independence.

In any case, the old notion that the ROC doesn't want independence, only to re-unify all of China under their rule, is now outdated. There's only one party - the New Party - which still advocates for that, and they haven't won a seat since 2008. So no, recognizing the ROC as a sovereign government is *not* recognizing the ROC as the government of mainland China instead of the PRC. The current ruling party of the ROC (the DPP) does not agree with or recognize the PRC's "One China Policy" (via the "1992 Consensus").

D'rek is on the money as usual. Ideologically, the Kuomintang of the 1950s is very different to the political party that exists in Taiwan today. It would have to be, as time generally tends to evolution in ideology, such as how the Communist Party in Russia is very different today than to what it was under Khruschev. Two whole generations have grown up under the situation of a self-governing but not officially independent Taiwan, and therefore attitudes around the One China Policy have changed to become far more complex. The 1971 UN Resolution officially stripped the ROC of any pretense to governing China proper anyway, and was the ultimate legitimisation for the PRC.

From what I can tell the internal dissension around official separation from the PRC appear to be around three main points:

- economic upheaval and potential Chinese reprisal
- that political separation from mainland China denotes a cultural and geographic separation from the mainland as well and the creation of a new, separate identity (i.e. explicitly not Chinese)
- the status-quo ('special state-to-state relations') denotes de facto independence anyway, so why rock the boat for what is essentially only a symbolic gesture?

Quote

I think we're currently seeing Taiwan themselves figure out what they want, and going by the current trends they seem to be favouring a gradual move towards independence. But it doesn't help that the US has sometimes actively stated that they don't want to see even the smallest steps towards independence or greater self-identity taken by the Taiwanese government. I hope that if and when the time comes for Taiwan to become officially independent (no declaration necessarily needed - the DPP, for example, argues that the 1992 Consensus was neither official nor binding and legally speaking they are in fact already two sovereign nations) that nations like the US, Canada, India, Russia, Australia, etc, will remember our own transitions from being part of a larger nation to our own recognized independence and support it.

One would only hope, but I daresay Australia for example will prioritise its own selfish interests (i.e. trade and relationships with China) over that of Taiwan. Our Prime Minister said just the other day after Trump's phone call from Taiwan's president that he was prepared to separate from the US on foreign policy concerning Taiwan and free trade (to the delight of Beijing, presumably).
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